100/200 8b vs yamaha - Page 2

SuitedBaby · #11 08-11-2007, 10:51 PM

It sure doesn't seem like in retrospect you like your play much. That must mean you were getting trapped a bit. The only thing that adds up for me after looking at the hand and your after-the-fact analysis is 7d6d 2d. Of course you might expect him to raise 3rd unless for some reason he felt he had an eager potential victim with an ace. So his trap backfired and he paid off on the end with a 76 low and his busted flush?

Patty

TStoneMBD · #12 08-11-2007, 11:02 PM

oh btw sorry i dont have the hh anymore but i scooped the pot for those wanting results

Rush17 · #13 08-12-2007, 12:53 AM

I play it the same but I think there's good value to checkraising the river. Look, he can't call your last bet unless he can beat KK or if he makes a low. And, the only hand that can beat you both ways is a wheel, so, if you check and he does make a low (thinking that maybe you're checking because you didn't improve to anything) you can induce the bet and he will be forced to pay off the checkraise.

Johnny#5 · #14 08-12-2007, 01:02 AM

It sounds like you are weighting his starting hand range toward the stronger HU hands i.e. pocket pairs and ace-baby in the hole and are scared of getting raised on 5th. That's fair enough and if he does raise you on 5th it seems like a pretty obvious delayed raise from Ax. Check-calling 5th would be best given this read.

I guess I don't understand what you are saying he does with his razz hands here. I think most of us are envisioning him saying something like "Well, I have a razz hand and an aggro player with an A behind me. I think this hand is too good to fold but I'm gonna just limp here. I want to see a cheap 4th and if the A has something I'd rather play a 3-way pot than a HU pot. If TStone completes maybe the BI will see his odds and make a loose call and I get my 3-way pot." Is this good poker? It may well not be.

It's not that I think his limping range is weak per se, but it's composed of hands that really don't want to be isolated by an A if they complete (not that anything really does, but you know.) I would expect him to limp with hands that he'd just as soon play 3 ways than HU and to me that screams razz hands. This is also his most combinatorically likely hand, especially after he catches an A on 4th.

Is that playing style transparent? Pretty much, yes. But I'm having a hard time believing a good player limps JJ or diamonds or whatever there either. I don't think a good player would be limping much of anything 4-handed, ace behind or not. But if I had to pick a hand for a good player to have in this spot it would be a razz hand.

DeathDonkey · #15 08-12-2007, 06:38 AM

Tstone,

What do you think about CRing 5th street as a change up? I think if it checks through here that's not really a bad result at all and if you can sometimes represent split aces in this spot when you don't have them its great for metagame and maybe +EV in this spot too since he will pay you off light if you make a low here putting you on high only.

-DeathDonkey

Johnny#5 · #16 08-12-2007, 12:39 PM

With a C/R you might also induce folds from one pair hands on 6th and 7th where, if he knew what you really had, he would call.

It kinda sounds like TStone fears being up against aces himself though and of course a C/R won't be too credible in that case. It would put a ton of pressure on like TT though, and if he had that in the actual hand he'd probably fold it when you make open KK even though he would call if you flipped your cards up. Also he might call to the end with a low draw and then fold a rivered pair of 4's or something.

Good idea, would be interesting to hear OP's thoughts.

PokerJans · #17 08-12-2007, 01:50 PM

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What do you think about CRing 5th street as a change up?

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If it checks through and he catches good on 6th and we don't then we have to fold. Which is fine.

But would he bet 5th if checked to? with what?

Johnny#5 · #18 08-12-2007, 05:43 PM

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I play it the same but I think there's good value to checkraising the river. Look, he can't call your last bet unless he can beat KK or if he makes a low. And, the only hand that can beat you both ways is a wheel, so, if you check and he does make a low (thinking that maybe you're checking because you didn't improve to anything) you can induce the bet and he will be forced to pay off the checkraise.

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But you lose a bet when he makes a worse low and checks behind. I think betting a bare worse low here over 50% of the time trying to fold out open KK is donktarded. I would expect a good player to do it just often enough so you have to call and not fold, i.e. 25%-ish. The other 75% of the time I expect him to be value betting something we split with at best. Since your low is pretty decent maybe he has a loser more, maybe 35% or something. But still not enough to checkraise.

Against a good player I think betting is the play here by a wide margin.

DeathDonkey · #19 08-12-2007, 07:16 PM

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What do you think about CRing 5th street as a change up?

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If it checks through and he catches good on 6th and we don't then we have to fold. Which is fine.

But would he bet 5th if checked to? with what?

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Good question...I think he could credibly believe we were out of line on 3rd street with maybe a high card and a baby in our hand and now giving up. He could also believe that we paired the 3 on 4th street and now we have a 3 low and small pair and he can put enough pressure on us to take it down whether or not he improves given how weak we would be. He can put us on a 4 low worse than his and just feel he has decent equity, position, and can run us off our hand when both boards brick again or he catches anything remotely scary. Basically imagine for a second we had one of those hands I just mentioned, wouldn't we love it if he checked behind 5th? CRing here sometimes will encourage this in the future which is good for us.

-DeathDonkey

PokerJans · #20 08-12-2007, 08:02 PM

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Basically imagine for a second we had one of those hands I just mentioned,

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I would bet! He caught a queen! I mean this is an online 100-200 game. I don't think anyone checks here with any pair and if I think someone was getting out of line here seeing that yamaha caught a Queen we would want to keep on firing. At least if I had a pair or was running a play with AT2s(I would never do this btw, it would be gross) or something I would keep on firing.

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He can put us on a 4 low worse than his and just feel he has decent equity, position, and can run us off our hand when both boards brick again or he catches anything remotely scary.

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I think this is the most likely scenario where he would bet. Or if he was slow playing something crazy.

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wouldn't we love it if he checked behind 5th? CRing here sometimes will encourage this in the future which is good for us.

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I like this thought. The general idea of taking a different line for future hands seems like a solid idea if you are playing with the same group of players on a consistent basis. And I guess if TStone wants to play this game a lot and knows that yamaha will always be in his game then this has merit.