I Am Innocent

[andyfox]

"you can't judge Biblical miracles without considering the reliability of the Bible on so many other issues."

This I don't understand.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

This I don't understand.


[/ QUOTE ]

A miracle reported in the Bible is different than a random report of a miracle. Nothing stated in the Bible as fact has ever been shown to be false. That alone is significant. There are also many arguments involving the nature of the Bible, how is was written, how it was preserved, it's accuracy concerning human nature, etc. To believe the miracles didn't happen you have to believe many of the writers were telling the truth about many facts that have been verified, that they wrote often in plain, simple, matter-of-fact style making observations that are accurate about many things, then out of the blue suddenly make up some events that they write about while other witnesses are still alive who could call them on their lies. None of that proves they happened, but it does mean they are not in the same class as undocumented, random miracles that have no apparent purpose and are not associated with God.

[andyfox]

Isn't it possible that they just believed they were telling the truth? Jesus wasn't where he was supposed to be, he was resurrected. Salt pillars were found in the area where Lot and his wife were exiting the scene, she was turned into a pillar.

Also, if the writers of the Bible were interested in presenting their religious point of view, they could very well have reported accurately about every-day events that were not particularly important to their religious proselytization, and miraculized a few things. The truth is that Jesus as not in the tomb; that he was resurrected is at question.

"Nothing stated in the Bible as fact has ever been shown to be false."

On the seventh day He rested?

[Borodog]

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[ QUOTE ]

This I don't understand.


[/ QUOTE ]

A miracle reported in the Bible is different than a random report of a miracle. Nothing stated in the Bible as fact has ever been shown to be false.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are differing, conflicting accounts of the same events in the Bible. Both cannot be correct. Therefore, at least some of the accounts in the Bible are false.

QED

[NotReady]

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Isn't it possible that they just believed they were telling the truth?


[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't want to argue the substantive issue, just pointing out that Bible miracles are more credible than random, extra-Biblical miracles. Many would disagree which would lead to a more thorough discussion, but that's my main point.

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On the seventh day He rested?


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Read in context with other passages referring to this most Bible scholars interpret that to mean that the creative work described in the first six days was complete. God's Sabbath rest is spoken of throughout Scripture, even the New Testament.

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]

The above story was not meant to rigorously prove anything. It was only to shed more light on my thought processes. Which in a nutshell revolves around claims of miracles. Whether it be the ressurection, God explicity answering prayers, or Jesus on a grilled cheese sandwich. Millions of such claims have been made. Those that have been investigated are disproved or at least not confirmed. The statistical evidence is zero out of whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

David, this is entirely and completely false as to fact.

Completely.

The problem with atheists is they think if such a claim were validated, there'd be some huge worldwide press a la some Hollywood picture and everyone would be all agog: finally!! proof!!

This is old hat. I mean really old, these things have been confirmed again and again by the most rigorous investigation by experts. And yeah, I can point you right at the so-called proof. But there is no proof because you will simply refuse to accept it, because you have already decided what "reality" is and what you will believe.

However, wasting my time for the twenty-gabillionth time on a message board:

1. go to Amazon,
2. order The Miracle Detective by Randall Sullivan
3. Read.

You know, I've told people myself they didn't have a right to an opinion about something when I knew how abysmally ignorant they were about whatever they were shooting their bazoos off about. David, sir, until you have read this book, or done some kind of open-minded research into a topic about which you obviously know next-to-nothing, I'd say.....

..it's your forum, you get to shoot off the old bazoo any way you want!

I can give you examples of investigated and confirmed healings of miraculous nature. But I'd have to write a whole book to explain how very rigorously they ARE investigated and how much an institution like the "modern" Catholic church, producing religious that don't believe in miracles, either, priding themselves on their intellectualism, really embarrassed when these things happen because the Church wants to appear as not a font of superstitious nonsense.

The doctors are atheists. Or many are until they start these exceptionally well-documented investigations.

David, when you have testimony from hospital personnel, doctors, nurses, when you have photographs of the body of a woman entirely covered in third degree burns, her flesh just burned away, doctors stating categorically she will be dead by morning - and when that woman within a few hours is completely healed, when the doctor says that simply by what we know about multiplication of cells the event was beyond natural law, you just can't support any statement that there have been no investigations that confirm miracuous healing.

When a guy has had his heart stopped for over two hours with no outside life support and comes back after his family's prayer for intercession with no trace of ill effect, no brain damage from lack of oxygen, when that event is well-documented and investigated and confirmed...

Read the book. Get back to me. Your facts are just incorrect.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The above story was not meant to rigorously prove anything. It was only to shed more light on my thought processes. Which in a nutshell revolves around claims of miracles. Whether it be the ressurection, God explicity answering prayers, or Jesus on a grilled cheese sandwich. Millions of such claims have been made. Those that have been investigated are disproved or at least not confirmed. The statistical evidence is zero out of whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

David, this is entirely and completely false as to fact.

Completely.

The problem with atheists is they think if such a claim were validated, there'd be some huge worldwide press a la some Hollywood picture and everyone would be all agog: finally!! proof!!

This is old hat. I mean really old, these things have been confirmed again and again by the most rigorous investigation by experts. And yeah, I can point you right at the so-called proof. But there is no proof because you will simply refuse to accept it, because you have already decided what "reality" is and what you will believe.

However, wasting my time for the twenty-gabillionth time on a message board:

1. go to Amazon,
2. order The Miracle Detective by Randall Sullivan
3. Read.

You know, I've told people myself they didn't have a right to an opinion about something when I knew how abysmally ignorant they were about whatever they were shooting their bazoos off about. David, sir, until you have read this book, or done some kind of open-minded research into a topic about which you obviously know next-to-nothing, I'd say.....

..it's your forum, you get to shoot off the old bazoo any way you want!

I can give you examples of investigated and confirmed healings of miraculous nature. But I'd have to write a whole book to explain how very rigorously they ARE investigated and how much an institution like the "modern" Catholic church, producing religious that don't believe in miracles, either, priding themselves on their intellectualism, really embarrassed when these things happen because the Church wants to appear as not a font of superstitious nonsense.

The doctors are atheists. Or many are until they start these exceptionally well-documented investigations.

David, when you have testimony from hospital personnel, doctors, nurses, when you have photographs of the body of a woman entirely covered in third degree burns, her flesh just burned away, doctors stating categorically she will be dead by morning - and when that woman within a few hours is completely healed, when the doctor says that simply by what we know about multiplication of cells the event was beyond natural law, you just can't support any statement that there have been no investigations that confirm miracuous healing.

When a guy has had his heart stopped for over two hours with no outside life support and comes back after his family's prayer for intercession with no trace of ill effect, no brain damage from lack of oxygen, when that event is well-documented and investigated and confirmed...

Read the book. Get back to me. Your facts are just incorrect.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. If I read that one specific book then can I tell you you are full of [censored]? It might take me a while, but it might be worth it. I'm fairly positive none of my teachers have taught me about any sort of miracle treatment that we should be performing nor given any examples of rigorously demonstrated medical miracles. And I go to a Jesuit school! I'm certain many, many of my professors would love nothing more than to point to some miracle or other. And yet....no such luck. But its all in this book, right?

Without having read a single thing about this book, no synopsis, no review, nothing, can I predict how it will go? Hardened, cynical journalist (or maybe he is even a doctor or scientist) sets out to show how these miracles aren't what they say they are, intends to show how these miracles are propped up and what causes people to be deceived, and is the paragon of rationality. However, along the way, his hardened heart softens, and he has a religious experience of his own...to him! The cynic! How improbable! It is through this journey that he finally comes to God as is forced-forced!-to accept the truth...miracles really DO happen.

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
Without having read a single thing about this book, no synopsis, no review, nothing, can I predict how it will go? Hardened, cynical journalist (or maybe he is even a doctor or scientist) sets out to show how these miracles aren't what they say they are, intends to show how these miracles are propped up and what causes people to be deceived, and is the paragon of rationality. However, along the way, his hardened heart softens, and he has a religious experience of his own...to him! The cynic! How improbable! It is through this journey that he finally comes to God as is forced-forced!-to accept the truth...miracles really DO happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really think there is no God? Or that lying works?

So, you knew nothing about the book? Except what was easily obtainable from Amazon. Because you only got that part right, and you got everything NOT on Amazon: wrong.

Now, stop shooting off your bazoo and read, cover-to-cover. Though facts are apparently wasted on you at this age. That's OK, you'll grow out of it.


(PS: the giveaway was journalist even though you tried to cover - should have stuck with scientist but you couldn't resist trying to prove how smart you are. Get better at deception, you'll need that skill at the tables. Part of that is: don't treat your opponents as if they are stupid.

BTDT.)

[David Sklansky]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The above story was not meant to rigorously prove anything. It was only to shed more light on my thought processes. Which in a nutshell revolves around claims of miracles. Whether it be the ressurection, God explicity answering prayers, or Jesus on a grilled cheese sandwich. Millions of such claims have been made. Those that have been investigated are disproved or at least not confirmed. The statistical evidence is zero out of whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

David, this is entirely and completely false as to fact.

Completely

[/ QUOTE ]

If what you say is true, than Biblical miracles were reasonably likely to have happened. But whether miracles occur nowadays is not a subject that I claim expertise in. Nor was it the subject of my post.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Without having read a single thing about this book, no synopsis, no review, nothing, can I predict how it will go? Hardened, cynical journalist (or maybe he is even a doctor or scientist) sets out to show how these miracles aren't what they say they are, intends to show how these miracles are propped up and what causes people to be deceived, and is the paragon of rationality. However, along the way, his hardened heart softens, and he has a religious experience of his own...to him! The cynic! How improbable! It is through this journey that he finally comes to God as is forced-forced!-to accept the truth...miracles really DO happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really think there is no God? Or that lying works?

So, you knew nothing about the book? Except what was easily obtainable from Amazon. Because you only got that part right, and you got everything NOT on Amazon: wrong.

Now, stop shooting off your bazoo and read, cover-to-cover. Though facts are apparently wasted on you at this age. That's OK, you'll grow out of it.


(PS: the giveaway was journalist even though you tried to cover - should have stuck with scientist but you couldn't resist trying to prove how smart you are. Get better at deception, you'll need that skill at the tables. Part of that is: don't treat your opponents as if they are stupid.

BTDT.)

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, the funny part is you think I'm lying. Thats great, and proves my point far better than anything I could have done.