JJ turbosqueeze. dumb? - Page 2

MrWooster · #11 08-05-2007, 12:50 PM

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won't i usually only get called by hands that beat JJ on the flop also, though?

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Incorrect, the pot will be very big on the flop and so villains will call lighter, if the flop comes all unders, I am definately pushing. If the flop comes A/K/Q high I am c-betting half the pot or checking depending if I think villain will fold.

The reason for c-betting half the pot is that your c-bets can be smaller in 3-bet pots.

DaycareInferno · #12 08-05-2007, 01:17 PM

what hands am i gaining on by doing that? the 3 shortstacks are folding the same range to a pot sized bet that they are to a push, and what are the two large stacks calling with? utg will be getting 2:1 to call, and sb would get 3:1 to call if utg calls. if i'm cbetting half the pot on the flop and getting called light, then what do if my cbet gets flat called and there is an over or two on the board? doesn't this seem like a pretty bad spot?

i'm not disagreeing with you guys. its not something i'm sure about, otherwise i wouldn't have posted the hand. i think its a lot more of a complex issue than you guys are making it out to be, considering my position and hand type though.

prodonkey · #13 08-05-2007, 01:20 PM

So what would you do with AA/KK in this situation? It really looks like you are just scared to play post flop. Say the flop comes 8 high.. and one of the donks stacks off with A8.

DaycareInferno · #14 08-05-2007, 01:27 PM

i'm not scared to play post flop. i just don't have any magical powers that allow me to make perfect decisions in big pots first to act with a hand like JJ, neither does anyone else. obviously making a normal raise is a + play, but so is pushing, so how do we determine which is better?

if i had AA/KK i would make the normal raise, but i don't have AA/KK, i have JJ.

DaycareInferno · #15 08-05-2007, 01:34 PM

also, if someone is bad enough to call 20bb with an A8, than we have to assume that they're not only calling a pfai with hands that beat me. they're either borderline retarded or they're not.

JechtSphere · #16 08-05-2007, 01:48 PM

I think one thing you're not realizing is that if you made this play in the same situation over and over, you're going to be losing so much value that you can gain from playing it "normal". I think that alone should be reason enough to pot it pre, c-bet any AKQ high flop as stated, c/f to a scary board. There's still plenty of opportunity to get it all in here and be a favorite on the flop and I think that will result in the most value all of the time, which is what you're really aiming to do longterm, y'know?

DaycareInferno · #17 08-05-2007, 01:55 PM

you're right, i'm not realizing that, because i don't know that its true. clearly pushing is going to yeild a big +, whether i only get called by hands that beat me (unlikely) or not, because there is already 15% of a maximum buyin in the middle of the table. almost every single time i'll either take that money with no contest, or flip with a huge overlay.

so, the question is, how does the positive expectation of pushing compare to the positive expectation of raising? that's not a question that can be answered just by using cliches. its pretty complex considering all of the variables in play.

TiltedFox · #18 08-05-2007, 02:07 PM

But you're not going to be flipping because anyone who calls your all-in would have a better hand. You might luck in and get called by AK or AQ, (flip) but anytime you get called by QQ+ (which is more likely) you're way behind.

DaycareInferno · #19 08-05-2007, 02:12 PM

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But you're not going to be flipping because anyone who calls your all-in would have a better hand. You might luck in and get called by AK or AQ, (flip) but anytime you get called by QQ+ (which is more likely) you're way behind.

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and how often is someone going to have QQ+? isn't it unreasonable to think that people are going to cold-call raises with QQ+ more often than they will call an AI with TT- at these limits? also, if someone has QQ+, how are my problems aleviated by making a normal raise? am i folding to anyone but utg that comes over the top of me pf? am i not still at a huge disadvantage post flop if i get called by QQ+? what hands am i getting such great value out of that call my humongous pot sized bet but not an ai?

DaycareInferno · #20 08-05-2007, 02:21 PM

other thing to consider: if i make a standard raised, get called by the utg, and one of the other players comes over the top ai, do i throw away my hand that's probably better than the pusher because of utg being live still? there are 3 medium stacks in this hand, and none are so short that it wouldn't be considered a raise if they pushed.