KK from the BB

[James.]

[ QUOTE ]
James.

your line makes sense if you think he will fold weak aces there. he does not sound like the type to fold weak aces there. so, as described i would lead the flop for like $50 or check it. once raised take your time and call. point is to induce big bluffs and maybe get him to slow down if he has an ace. then check turn and river. that way you induce him to change his range in your favor: he adds a ton of bluff hands, is more likely to semibluff, and may even bet a Q not realizing you have KK.

of course you have to lay the hand down often, but here against a bluffy opponent (if that's what he is) your global strategy should profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Matt,

thanks for taking the time to respond. your book is awesome. i just received it the other day and have only began to scratch the surface, but it is very readable and the concepts seem to be well-explained.

so you suggest playing the hand in such a way that will maximize the bluff equity inherent in my opponent's range? if it was HU that's certainly the way i would have approached it given the board.

i don't know if this is right or wrong but the two limpers in the hand changed things a bit and caused my deviation from that strategy. my flop bet was really intended to win it right away since the pot was pretty big at that point. it's also not out of the realm of reason that one of the limpers might be capable of folding a weak ace on occasion, though i wouldn't expect it a majority of the time.

i guess i like the $50 bet more than the flop check given the multiway situation. that would likely induce a raise from the LAG just as my original bet did, but with the benefit of being from a wider range of bluff/semibluff/valuebluff hands as well as facing the limpers with a bet and raise which would induce folds and get the pot HU. after that i could take the more passive line to showdown.

[Surf]

I think checking the flop is fine, so is betting small to induce the lag to bluff, and then calling with the "you've almost got me to fold! just one more bet!" type attitude projected.

Surf

[Matt Flynn]

James.

i clustered the hand. big error on my part. forgot there were three others in the pot with you.

i'd give up without putting a penny in on the flop. players' ranges are skewed towards aces in those games where they call raises with a wide range. til they learn better. wouldn't surprise me at all to see Axs (which is a ridiculous preflop call), and he ain't folding, at least not the loose low-stakes live and microstakes online players i'm thinking of.

sorry about that -

matt

[Josh.]

if i bet the flop i make it much smaller.

calling and check/calling the turn is infinitely better than shoving the flop

[James.]

[ QUOTE ]
if i bet the flop i make it much smaller.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree. i like Matt's original suggestion of like a $50ish bet. it should look fishy enough to induce the LAG to raise a pretty wide range of hands i beat in that spot(sensing weakness) and reduce my exposure quite a bit. i can safely fold to aggression from the limpers, and basically put in no more money UI if it doesn't get HU.

[ QUOTE ]
calling and check/calling the turn is infinitely better than shoving the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

as played, i think i disagree. reason being if i only *call* the flop raise after that action(assuming he has a worse hand), alarm bells will start going off in LAGs head because he knows i'm not peeling lightly. at least that's my opinion. i'm open to being schooled here.

i do think if i did the small flop bet-thingy, calling a raise(from the LAG)and checking would be substantially superior. as i played it i just don't think i would have enough equity versus the range with which he raises that amount on the flop AND fires with on the turn.

and to Matt,

so awesome of you to come back and notice this hand again. thanks for your input. as stated, love PNL; you guys did a GREAT job.

[Josh.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
calling and check/calling the turn is infinitely better than shoving the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

as played, i think i disagree. reason being if i only *call* the flop raise after that action(assuming he has a worse hand), alarm bells will start going off in LAGs head because he knows i'm not peeling lightly. at least that's my opinion. i'm open to being schooled here.

i do think if i did the small flop bet-thingy, calling a raise(from the LAG)and checking would be substantially superior. as i played it i just don't think i would have enough equity versus the range with which he raises that amount on the flop AND fires with on the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]


shoving over his raise is obviously stronger than calling. calling is weak. you look like you have a scared JJ or soemthing. he'll try to take you off it on the turn, because that's what lags do. they make stupid fps bluffs. shoving gets all worse hands to fold and all better ones to call. unless he folds aces or calls with worse hands often, shoving cannot possibly be the best play

[James.]

[ QUOTE ]

unless he folds aces or calls with worse hands often, shoving cannot possibly be the best play

[/ QUOTE ]

right on.

he's NEVER folding an ace, but the way he was running over the table at the time(and his general demeanor) he was not folding a Queen or even a hand as weak as a PP HU.

i agree with you, though. he'll try to push me off my hand most all the time on a later street.