AQd on monotone flop: Could be for value, could be FE

[BlueEcho]

Hmmm, if we are going to bet and then call a shove, why not check/call to insure villian keeps going with the widest range of hands possible?

[PantsOnFire]

[ QUOTE ]
Again, pushing isn't "wrong", I just think it's slightly worse. It's a really big overbet and I think it's less likely to get called by a hand that's behind.

[/ QUOTE ]
Like I said in my earlier post, either we are going all the way with this or we are check/folding. I don't see any in between here.

I get your concerns for the preflop play. That's fine. But the real question by OP is; what now?. If you bet this flop, you are eventually going all-in. If you CR, you will be all-in. So your choices are to give up the hand or get all your chips in.

We can debate which of these is better, but if the decision is to get your chips in, then I feel strongly the best move is to simply push right off the bat. You may get a better hand to fold which is very good.

[Stumpy]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm, if we are going to bet and then call a shove, why not check/call to insure villian keeps going with the widest range of hands possible?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he's not betting every hand, and there are a lot of hands (like non set JJ- hands) that will fold to a push sometimes but have proper odds to call that bet.

It's not like he raised, you called and checked to him. You raised, he called. That really reduces the chances that he just bluffs off all his chips with no hand, no draw.

[Sherman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm, if we are going to bet and then call a shove, why not check/call to insure villian keeps going with the widest range of hands possible?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he's not betting every hand, and there are a lot of hands (like non set JJ- hands) that will fold to a push sometimes but have proper odds to call that bet.

It's not like he raised, you called and checked to him. You raised, he called. That really reduces the chances that he just bluffs off all his chips with no hand, no draw.

[/ QUOTE ]


LOL. JJ folding to a shove? Is this live poker?

Stumpy, I agree with almost everything you said in this thread...except that JJ might fold.

[Sherman]

The stacks kinda suck postflop. An overbet push looks like a naked Ad or an overpair w/out an Ad. Funny that we don't have either.

You've got some FE against smaller pairs (77,88). And you can get some value out of hands that you are ahead of (Adx, where x /= K, Kdx). Also, villain may make the mistake of calling with only a diamond draw that is less than the K or A high.

I was just talking with a medium stakes NL player about this sort of thing the other day. He called it, "Merging ranges". The question is, can a bet be a bluff and for value at the same time? We both agreed that it could. Other disagree.

Basically, there is an optimal calling/folding frequency for villain based on his hand and based on his estimate of your range. His optimal frequency is probably profitable against your overbet shove. However, IMO, the odds that he calls/folds optimally are pretty low. So make him make that tough decision. The odds that he will screw it up are in your favor. Thus, your bet is both a bluff and for value (sometimes he'll make the mistake of folding the best hand, other times he'll make the mistake of calling with a worse hand).

[Dave D]

I definitely agree that a bet can be both for value and a bluff at the same time.

I think most combo draws (like an OESFD on the flop) is basically that.

[jonnyd]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the raise PF, I don;'t think you're protecting your hand enough. I'd make it 700 to go, maybe even 800 because it's AQ and you're so out of position. I don't really even mind taking down the blinds.


[/ QUOTE ]

i hate a raise to 3.5-4x utg+1 with AQo. playing a big pot out of position with an okay hand for 1/5 of my stack is not very fun.