5/5 PLO: noob bluffing in 600BB pot

[Poker monkey]

I don't quite get what you're trying to represent on the turn. Surely with a set you'd have bet full pot; same with top two pair, having missed a check-raise on the flop. You're not repping KJ on the turn, so potting the river when the ultimate scare card comes looks bluffy. He's only got about 3/4 of the pot left on the river and gets pretty good odds to call if he has a made hand. And a hand like KJxx with spades seems very much within his range. It'd make sense for that hand to take a free card on the flop.

Also, does anyone else fold pre-flop? Position is key in PLO and this hand seems a little bit weak to be playing OOP.

[Silent A]

O/U on this one's posting life?

Looks like 7 minutes.

[Buzz]

SilentA - LOL. Took me a while to spot it. I was drafting a reply to another post.

Buzz

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't quite get what you're trying to represent on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]Poker Monkey - You must be addressing that question to Jamougha, but you have posted in response to my post.
[ QUOTE ]
Surely with a set you'd have bet full pot;

[/ QUOTE ]Think so? Actually I mix up my play. But yes, I'd pot it here more often than not (but not "surely"). And I know individuals who (I am fairly certain) would slow play it.[ QUOTE ]
same with top two pair,

[/ QUOTE ]top two pair is a bit different, in my humble opinion. Not sure what I'd do. I think I might play it about the same as middle flopped set. [ QUOTE ]
You're not repping KJ on the turn,

[/ QUOTE ]Probably not.[ QUOTE ]
so potting the river when the ultimate scare card comes looks bluffy.

[/ QUOTE ]Excellent point![ QUOTE ]
...a hand like KJxx with spades seems very much within his range. It'd make sense for that hand to take a free card on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]Another very good point![ QUOTE ]
Also, does anyone else fold pre-flop? Position is key in PLO and this hand seems a little bit weak to be playing OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]Except the higher and more coordinated the better, I don't know how you guys know what a good starting hand is for pot-limit Omaha-high. Seems to me to be very flop and positional dependent, and also stack size dependent. And this starting hand lacks high cards and coordination in addition to being played out of position, but Hero does have the bully stack.

Buzz

[alavet]

This is not my limit at all, but

I think its nice play and i use it sometimes (and blow, lol)
From villian, it looks like you slowplayed trips (tried to check-raise his agression). Or maybe you just get trips with 55 (very fantastic)
I think you would be called just with sort of:
AA[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]x[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]x, the reason for him not to bet flop its just drawy board, but i think solid player would raise with AA anyway
KJ**
slowplayed queens (i dont think about another trips, assuming he would go to potect it more than queens and to gather info about; anyway with queens he better go reraise you on the turn if he is good)
And probably with AQ** wrap

[Poker monkey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't quite get what you're trying to represent on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]Poker Monkey - You must be addressing that question to Jamougha, but you have posted in response to my post.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, I was responding to the OP but typed in the Quick Reply box at the bottom as I usually do, and that sets the reply to the last post (I view flat mode).

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Surely with a set you'd have bet full pot;

[/ QUOTE ]Think so? Actually I mix up my play. But yes, I'd pot it here more often than not (but not "surely"). And I know individuals who (I am fairly certain) would slow play it.[ QUOTE ]
same with top two pair,

[/ QUOTE ]top two pair is a bit different, in my humble opinion. Not sure what I'd do. I think I might play it about the same as middle flopped set.

[/ QUOTE ]I think potting it is standard on this turn with any set or top two on this board since it's very drawey and you have to figure your hand to be best after it's checked round on the flop... you're out of position, you have to charge people to draw, and anything less than pot looks weak. I see some players (e.g. Stinger in the Cardrunners videos) who never bet less than pot. I don't know what most people in this forum do in terms of ever betting less than pot?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, does anyone else fold pre-flop? Position is key in PLO and this hand seems a little bit weak to be playing OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]Except the higher and more coordinated the better, I don't know how you guys know what a good starting hand is for pot-limit Omaha-high. Seems to me to be very flop and positional dependent, and also stack size dependent. And this starting hand lacks high cards and coordination in addition to being played out of position, but Hero does have the bully stack.

Buzz

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm a bit of an Omaha noob as well - I'm not too confident of pre-flop ranges, and this might be a call or even a re-pot to a button raise - I'd be interested to hear some other views on this.

[Jamougha]

Well thanks for all the detailed posts, especially Buzz, very helpful. Yeah, I was aware that my spades were probably no good and planned to cf if I hit, I was just juicing the pot effectively as a pure play. Overall I think the turn was spew.

Villain wound up calling with AQ[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2.

What do people think of his turn raise here? I'm still puzzling over how to play 2 pair + draw in omaha and I think I like a turn call better with marginal hand/non nut draw.

[Poker monkey]

He's raised your bet so he likes his hand and he'll probably call with position if you re-raise him. He might even shove on you. If you don't think your flush draw is any good, I don't see why you would want to call the raise, so you should probably fold.

Or if you think he's on a pure semibluff and your bottom two pair is ahead, you could call and try to check down the river. Re-raising when he's unlikely to fold seems very spewey when you don't even have a nut draw.

[I dunno]

I was going to post what I thought about the hand, but after every comment I found myself putting a disclaimer such as "it depends" and "I'd have to be at the table"

People tilt differently, and whether a play on any street is +ev really just "depends".

The only thing that I can say with a good degree of certainty is that you can't eliminate KJxx from his range. He could have easily been trying checkraise the flop. His turn action looks like it could be a lot of hands, but a big combo draw either broadway or middle wrap is probably going to be good part of his range.

And it looks like your hand is some kind of combo draw a good portion of the time too, but more weighted towards the middle, because I'm sure you fire a c-bet with a good wrap, even an open-ender, more often than not.

Also, just as you say he's unlikely to have a set becuase he didn't bet the flop, he is likely to make the same assumption about your hand.

So along with worrying about the nut straight, you have to decide how often he has a set here and how often he will put you on a missed draw(especially if he tends to call down on tilt). It's pretty signiicant that the flush draw missed, IMO.