Why no backgammon discussion?

[pzhon]

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Friend, doubling is everything. At world class level, no checker mistakes are made, the mistakes are to do with the cube.

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Sorry, but that is just a common misconception.

Here are some stats of some players, most of whom are considered world-class: Karsten Nielsen's rankings.

Every single player on that list has a lower checker play error rate than cube error rate. Many of the cube error rates are under 1 millipoint per move. None of the checker play error rates are under 2 millipoints per move. Nielsen is not the only one who has collected lists of stats like that, and on each list, the cube error rates are much smaller than the checker play error rates. You can also see this in collections of browsable recorded and analyzed matches. (To see the summary statistics, click on the "x wins" link in the navigation frame.)

The actual equity given up is not the same as the normalized error given up. The error rate uses the normalized errors, which overstate the size of cube errors. That means the equity given up by doubling mistakes is actually even smaller in relation to the checker play errors than the error rate indicates.

The error rates in those stats are for match play, where the cube decisions are particularly tricky. In money play, the cube error rates are smaller, while the checker player error rates stay about the same.

When typical club players are analyzed, the cube errors increase in proportion, but the vast majority of serious players still give up more equity with checker play mistakes than cube mistakes.

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Some countries play without the cube (doubling cube is a recent US invention from 1920s) and players from those countries when playing with the cube get massacred.

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They play poorly without the doubling cube, too. Their main problem is not inexperience with the cube. It is a lack of good competition and objective feedback, so they keep blundering the way their grandfathers did. In fact, if I have to play a short match, such as in a side event at a tournament, and someone asks to play without the doubling cube, I agree, since I think my advantage is greater without it. It's like playing a freezeout for 20 big blinds. I'd win more money per hand playing NL, but I'd win more frequently playing limit.

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Moreover, Sklansky has pointed out that in backgammon checker mistakes cost you little where as cube mistakes cost you a lot.

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Do you have a reference for this statement? My guess is that you meant someone else. Anyway, the statistics are overwhelming, whatever it feels like. If two time world champ Robertie said it, then Robertie was wrong.

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One book I could recommend is 501 Essential Backgammon Positions by Bill Robertie as it has lots of doubling reference positions in it.

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That's an excellent book. If you would like something which concentrates on the doubling cube almost exclusively, try The Backgammon Encyclopedia, Volume 1 by Kit Woolsey.

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The cube is everything.

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A huge step toward improving is realizing that a lot of the "automatic" checker plays you make may be wrong.

Here are some examples just on responses to the opening rolls. Decide first, but the answers are in white. For rollouts, see Stick's site.

Oppt: 4-3, splitting 24/20 and building 13/9. How should you play 5-3? <font color="white">Hitting 13/5* is right by a significant amount. The error of making the 3 point is common among weak players.</font>
Oppt: 6-4, making the 2 point. How should you play 4-3? <font color="white">Bringing two checkers down from the midpoint is clear. Splitting is a significant, common error.</font>
Oppt: 6-1, making the bar point. How should you play 2-1? <font color="white">You should slot 6/5 13/11. Splitting 24/23 13/11 is a common mistake even by strong players.</font>
Oppt: 6-5, running. How should you play 6-4? <font color="white">Making the 2 point is right by a little over splitting and building, but almost no one plays this, or even considers it. When I play this live against strong players, I sometimes comment, "This is how you know I'm a bot. No human makes this play." Running 24/14 is clearly wrong. </font>

[Al Mirpuri]

Dear pzhon,

It is rare to come across a post as good as yours.

You correct me, without offending me. I thank you for that.

Your post is also falls into that small category know as erudite.

As for the Sklanksy reference, it is definitely in Getting The Best Of it but I cannot give you the page number as I no longer have my copy (it is a long story).

I was a little unsure about the accurateness of what you said concerning players from countries that do not use the cube. I was stating sometning I had read whilst you were talking from your experience. My understanding was second hand but yours even though empirical must have had a little sample base unless of course you are a backgammon pro regularly playing players from countries that do not use a doubling cube.

Thanks again for your post.

Best Wishes,

Al Mirpuri.

[pzhon]

Since I typed 13/9 where I should have typed 13/10, I might as well add some diagrams. I made a small change to the comment in white on the last position.
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Oppt: 4-3, splitting 24/20 and building 13/10. How should you play 5-3?
<font color="white">Hitting 13/5* is right by a significant amount. The error of making the 3 point is common among weak players.</font>


Oppt: 6-4, making the 2 point. How should you play 4-3?
<font color="white">Bringing two checkers down from the midpoint is clear. Splitting is a significant, common error.</font>


Oppt: 6-1, making the bar point. How should you play 2-1?
<font color="white">You should slot 6/5 13/11. Splitting 24/23 13/11 is a common mistake even by strong players.</font>


Oppt: 6-5, running. How should you play 6-4?
<font color="white">Making the 2 point appears to be right by a little over splitting and building, but almost no one plays 8/2 6/2, or even considers it. When I play this live against strong players, I sometimes comment, "This is how you know I'm a bot. No human makes this play." Running 24/14 is clearly wrong. </font>

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[zaphod]

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Moreover, Sklansky has pointed out that in backgammon checker mistakes cost you little where as cube mistakes cost you a lot

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In a way this is true. Each cube error you make rates to be more expensive than each checker play error that you make(Your 5 biggest cube errors from a match is likly to be bigger than your 5 biggest checker play errors). But you will have many more opportunities to make checker play errors. So in total i think most(all?) people give up more equity from checker play errors than from cube errors.

[pzhon]

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Let's get some going then- are there any backgammon players in the Bay Area?

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There are quite a few strong players who live in the Bay Area. See the Backgammon By The Bay club.

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I was thinking of going to my first tournament this saturday (in Berkeley). What should I expect/be prepared for?


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If you are used to playing on a computer, you might miss the automatic pip count. You might want to practice counting pips a few times, hiding the counts, and then revealing the counts to check. If you have never counted pips, it may be more arithmetic than you are used to doing, but it is worth a lot to know the count. Some people have elaborate methods, and some people have fast methods, but the important thing is that you have a method you will use when you need it.

Another thing to get used to is that you may be playing clockwise or counterclockwise. (When one player is playing one way, the opponent is playing the other.) Some players play online and get used to one direction, and have difficulty adjusting. You always roll on the right hand side of the board, though.

If you have only played informally, make sure you understand the Crawford rule for matches, and the Jacoby rule for money play.

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I'm a pretty solid player again my friends but would probably get destroyed by someone who really knows when to double and take/forfeit

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It's common for people to overestimate the effect of the doubling cube. While you can make huge mistakes with the doubling cube, most players give up far more equity with checker plays, even in matches where the cube decisions are more complicated. This is because you have many more checker play decisions, and until you are an expert, it is easy to give up significant amounts of equity on positions that you think are not interesting.

[pzhon]

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I guess not as many of you all play as I'd expect. Looking over the first page I dont see any backgammon threads.

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There are better places to discuss backgammon because it is hard to post diagrams here. Nevertheless, if you search the archives properly, you will find that there are quite a few threads about backgammon.

[MarKing]

For those who missed the PartyGammon.com Million programme on TV,
PartyGammon is uploading all 5 programmes on Google video this week.
Here comes the first programme: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...3192&amp;hl=en
the first ever $1M backgammon tournament

[kerr]

I have been having difficult finding a board I am happy with, so could someone point me in the right direction?

Specifically, I want it be large, non-leather with printed points on a felt type surface.

[VLV]

What do you guys reckon is the best computer program to play against? I'd like to have something to play during the more boring lectures that I have.

[pzhon]

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What do you guys reckon is the best computer program to play against?

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Gnu Backgammon is free, and may be the strongest. Other programs may be more user-friendly, and better in certain types of positions, or for certain types of analysis.