$1/$2 NL Cash River Call Ruling?

[TexBigSlick]

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It would also be interesting to know how the player bet on the turn.

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Player B's bet on the turn was two stacks of $15. Player B announced his bet on the turn, but did not announce his bet on the river.

[Lottery Larry]

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Host/House: Rules that a fold is allowed. Host's reasoning was: Preflop, when players call $2 when a $5 straddle is out they are allowed to fold instead. This is the same thing.

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It is not the same thing. Calling when you think you are limping pf but there is actually a raise in front of (whether it's a straddle or a UTG raise) is a misunderstanding and the call can be taken back.

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If the straddle can be made anywhere else besides UTG, I'd disagree- they shouldn't be the same (think of a kill pot blind being posted as a related example).

If not, then they are the same and the slacker should be committed to calling (if you have a 40% rule in place) or can retrieve (if 50% or more)

[TexBigSlick]

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If the straddle can be made anywhere else besides UTG, I'd disagree- they shouldn't be the same (think of a kill pot blind being posted as a related example).

If not, then they are the same and the slacker should be committed to calling (if you have a 40% rule in place) or can retrieve (if 50% or more)

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At this game, a straddle is allowed either UTG or on the button.

[Zetack]

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In my house, I'd let the player withdraw the $30 call.

If you use the 80% rule listed above, the call would not be binding.

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Its not even a guideline its a "possible" rule of thumb. I don't like it at all as a rule of thumb, however, as I think in most cases its really hard to argue that, say, a 75% call is a gross misunderstanding of the bet size.

Note the rule also says there is considerable amount of discretion to be applied in this rule.

If you need a rule of thumb, I'd be more inclined to go with Larry's 50% mark, but even there, there's gotta be some lattitude. Some guy puts out a $350 in small denomination chips and three black hundreds, and the other guy puts in $350, not seeing the blacks, I'm probably letting him take back his bet (in a 1/2 game...in a 50/100 game, I probably would make him call the entire bet, although the hypothetical with the chip denoms probably doesn't make sense in that case).

--Zetack

[Small Fry]

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Last line in section 12 of Zetacks post.

[/ QUOTE ] My bad- my lazy butt was looking for the number.

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but I don't think I would apply it universally. I would be more inclined to consider that actual $$'s of the wagers / calls. So in this instance , bet was $45 but he thought it was $30, I would rule as I stated previosly but I might rule differently had the original bet been $200 and the player called thinking the bet was only $150. Notice the percentage of the second example is actually higher, 75% vs 67%, but the actual dollar amount is greater. In my opinion this is more significant. I'm not totally sold on my own opinion though....lol

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Ugh... and ugh so more. Seems pretty arbitrary then, unless you're going to make a rule that says "if you'd have to call $50 or more than you THOUGHT you'd have to call, you can pull back... otherwise, you must complete"

Ugly, no?



And the turn bet does NOT matter. In fact, in reconsidering, I'd be more likely to rule that a river call UNDER 50% would have to completed. making a single-stack bet is one thing (easy to underestimate).

But when a bettor makes a point of multiple stacks, then the caller has the responsibility for verifying the amount before blindly pushing out chips and then hoping for a do-over.

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As you state it is is very ugly....lol. Overall my main point is to determine if there is truely confusion and the overall impact. I just used the example as an example. It wasn't intended to be a hard and fast rule. I could have used $500 and the player called thinking the bet was $375. Still 75%. Now you make him put out another $125. I realize that the percentages and ratios are all still the same, but the actual dollar amounts have changed dramatically. And because of that, like I said, I'm still not totally sold on my opinion.

As OP has now pointed out the turn bet was in the same style as the river bet - stacks of $15 - although no verbal confirmation of bet was given. This tends to push me toward the side that the caller wasn't paying very good attention and it wasn't just a misunderstanding. Now if the turn bet was 3 stacks of 10 and the river bet was 3 stacks of 15 then, while I agree the caller should understand / know / clarify the bet amount, there is a little more leway for the misunderstanding angle.

Generaly I'm more hard-lined about the rules but in this instance, at a friendly(?) home game where the dollar figures could represent significant money to some people I'm more inclined to try to put all the facts together leading up to the error to see if I can understand the players thinking and why the mistake occurred. Rather than ruling "by the book" I'm trying to rule "in the best interest of the game".

For the future, probably the best thing to do is to pick a number, be it 80%, 25% or anywhere in between and stick with it. Apply it to the preflop straddle scenarios too. But since that rule isn't in place now my inclination is

[BrianBigNFun]

At my game I'd let A take his chips back, but that's because it's a home game and we all friendly with each other and we trust that each other is being truthful when it comes to intentions. I'd give player A a warning that he should ask for a count of the bet if he isnt sure next time and most of the time the mistake isnt repeated. If it's casino then yeah, it should be a call.

[TexBigSlick]

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If it's casino then yeah, it should be a call.

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All I can add is that there was some significance {rake} to the quotes {paid dealers} around "home" in the OP.

[BrianBigNFun]

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If it's casino then yeah, it should be a call.

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All I can add is that there was some significance {rake} to the quotes {paid dealers} around "home" in the OP.

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Totally different situation than a "friendly" home game and I retract my statement. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Bulldog]

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$1/$2 NL Cash "Home" game.

We'll join the hand on the turn:

<ul type="square">[*]Player A: "Check"[*]Player B: Says "$30" and puts $30 in the middle[*]Player A: Says nothing and puts $30 in the middle[/list]Action moves to the river:

<ul type="square">[*]Player A: "Check"[*]Player B: Says nothing and places $45 -- three stacks of $15 each -- in the middle[*]Player A: Says says nothing, but places $30 in the middle[*]Dealer: Says to Player A "You need $15 more, the bet was $45"[*]Player A: Pulls his chips back and says "I thought he said $30, I fold"[*]Player B: Objects[*]Host/House: Rules that a fold is allowed. Host's reasoning was: Preflop, when players call $2 when a $5 straddle is out they are allowed to fold instead. This is the same thing.[/list]
How would you rule?

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Player A never called, but he did put $30 in the middle. It's now up to him. Fold (and lose the $30) or complete the call by putting $15 more in.

I don't think you can require Player A to put more money in the pot when he never said "call."

In a casino, same thing. Nobody from the house is reaching into Player A's stack to put his $15 in the pot.

[Colima420]

Home game: whatever you decide.

Casino: Player either completes to $45 or he mucks and loses the $30. He can't take back what he has put in.

I he would have said "call", the he has to put in the whole $45 regardless of if he misunderstood the amount or not. But since he only put the money in, then he either has to complete or fold.

I would have ruled like the casino here.

Colima420