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#11
07-31-2007, 03:14 PM
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Re: JJ, lot of action
Wow, we're deep in the first level and ppl want to reraise with JJ? We got a player who raised in ep with a limper in front of him, what are the odds that the pf raiser has anything that isn't worse then a slight dog? I call with a deep stack and position and play some poker.
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#12
07-31-2007, 03:16 PM
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Re: JJ, lot of action
[ QUOTE ]
Is a raise to 800 is a total bluff to try to chase out QQ? [/ QUOTE ] Nah....I think it's a statement to fold donks holding AT AJ and smaller pairs. At least that's my guess. Ok... lets look at this a bit... A raise to 450 isn't enough and after one calls they are all compelled to call... A raise to cull the filed has to be 3 x 120 plus enough to cover 4 players and then some.. or about 800. That's better but it's going to commmit either us or some of them, likely resulting in a shove. If that's going to happen it's better not to give odds in a shovefest and just do it ourselves. So then what push? Well at least we have FE but we have no read on the raiser. Call... one problem. 5 handed 3 of the 4 could be playing lower pairs and when our kind of board hits...5 8 9 then you wonder if someone hit a set... chances are not as bad as one in 8. But at least here you can play poker... but you likely have to proceed carefully which also allows more chance of an overcard hitting (and that sucks). This spot sucks so hard and the stacks are so awkward. So out of my options of shove or call, since it's 5 handed.... I call playing for set value almost exclusively. The pot's laying me odds to do that.
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#13
07-31-2007, 03:58 PM
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Re: JJ, lot of action
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Is a raise to 800 is a total bluff to try to chase out QQ? [/ QUOTE ] Nah....I think it's a statement to fold donks holding AT AJ and smaller pairs. At least that's my guess. Ok... lets look at this a bit... A raise to 450 isn't enough and after one calls they are all compelled to call... A raise to cull the filed has to be 3 x 120 plus enough to cover 4 players and then some.. or about 800. That's better but it's going to commmit either us or some of them, likely resulting in a shove. If that's going to happen it's better not to give odds in a shovefest and just do it ourselves. So then what push? Well at least we have FE but we have no read on the raiser. Call... one problem. 5 handed 3 of the 4 could be playing lower pairs and when our kind of board hits...5 8 9 then you wonder if someone hit a set... chances are not as bad as one in 8. But at least here you can play poker... but you likely have to proceed carefully which also allows more chance of an overcard hitting (and that sucks). This spot sucks so hard and the stacks are so awkward. So out of my options of shove or call, since it's 5 handed.... I call playing for set value almost exclusively. The pot's laying me odds to do that. [/ QUOTE ] but then you're not JUST hoping for a set... you're hoping to hit a set AND that either someone else makes a set, hits an overcard, or has an overpair and is not afraid that one of the many other players in the pot has a set. i'm not sure that happens enough to make it a better play than raising to 800, since i think only one player (the raiser) is reasonably likely to have an overpair.
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#14
07-31-2007, 04:27 PM
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Re: JJ, lot of action
I like the call with position and not soley for set value...with an undercard flop I want to see who bets and how much...why commit enough chips to make a good reraise at this stage with JJ especially when we'e on the button...
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#15
07-31-2007, 05:02 PM
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Re: JJ, lot of action
Raise to 480 and re-evaluate on flop.
I assume the initial raiser is the only one that comes along with you here. If the flop is rags-undercards and he bets, raise and fold to a reraise. If the flop has an A, K or Q and he checks make a continuation bet. It might be weak but I fold to a flop check-raise. JJ is just too hard to play when facing big bets with overcards on bard. If the flop is rags-undercards and he checks make a continuation bet. If you get re-raised tank and go with your gut.
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#16
07-31-2007, 06:10 PM
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Re: JJ, lot of action
[ QUOTE ]
Raise to 480 and re-evaluate on flop. I assume the initial raiser is the only one that comes along with you here. If the flop is rags-undercards and he bets, raise and fold to a reraise. If the flop has an A, K or Q and he checks make a continuation bet. It might be weak but I fold to a flop check-raise. JJ is just too hard to play when facing big bets with overcards on bard. If the flop is rags-undercards and he checks make a continuation bet. If you get re-raised tank and go with your gut. [/ QUOTE ] You don't have enough chips for all this [censored]. If you raise to 480 they'll probably all call with the crazy price they'll be getting. Any raise you make needs to be at least 700, and a raise of that size is pretty much going to commit you to the hand so you may as well just shove. After taking another look at this hand, I still think calling is by far the best play here.
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#17
07-31-2007, 06:11 PM
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Re: JJ, lot of action
[ QUOTE ]
Raise to 480 and re-evaluate on flop. I assume the initial raiser is the only one that comes along with you here. If the flop is rags-undercards and he bets, raise and fold to a reraise. If the flop has an A, K or Q and he checks make a continuation bet. It might be weak but I fold to a flop check-raise. JJ is just too hard to play when facing big bets with overcards on bard. If the flop is rags-undercards and he checks make a continuation bet. If you get re-raised tank and go with your gut. [/ QUOTE ] This is not too bad. However, keep in mind we are starting this hand with almost 150BBs. The times this sort of play doesn't work is going to be a lot and when it doesn't work, we are going to eat up a lot of our stack with what is basically a medium pocket pair. The starting cost to this hand is 480=24BB. A continuation bet is going to be around 700 or 35BB. A raise to an open donk bet will cost even more. You could come out of this with half your stack gone in a deep stack situation. If you think about it, who plays for half their deep stack with a pair of Js?
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#18
07-31-2007, 07:24 PM
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Re: JJ, lot of action
If we were in the blinds, a repop to 800 would be nice. But since we're on the button, I'd rather make the call and work from there.
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#19
07-31-2007, 07:39 PM
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Re: JJ, lot of action
[ QUOTE ]
If we were in the blinds, a repop to 800 would be nice. But since we're on the button, I'd rather make the call and work from there. [/ QUOTE ] I agree that a repop would be better from the blinds (although I would call in the blinds too). Since we are on the button this is a pretty clear call given how deep we are.
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#20
07-31-2007, 07:50 PM
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Re: JJ, lot of action
I know it has already been said, but I will add my 2 cents. JJ is one of the most difficult NL hands to play and it is shown by the variety of possible plays everyone has come up with. I personally like the call and see what the flop brings. You will commit yourself to the post with almost any raise, but the call lets you play some poker at this stage of the tournament.
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