general question

[Khaos4k]

[ QUOTE ]
standard play fold??
Villain is betting hands like KJ KQ this way all the time, and with a set most players would simply slowplay. The bet might be seen as a continuation bet after a miss, so he might also be raising hands like A9 T9s.
I also agree with Jzo that this does not seem like a set line to me.
I feel u have to 3bet this, and depending on stack sizes shove it.

[/ QUOTE ]

NO! TPTK is not a hand we want to stack off with by default!

[DaycareInferno]

3betting is pretty dumb against a random here. all you're doing is maximizing your losses and minimizing your gains. (not there neccessarily are any gains).

even if i knew my opponent had a Kx, i usually would not 3bet. i would call, and then check out the turn, since i'm more likely to get the rest of their money if i leave them in the lead.

fold > call > 3bet

[Prodigy54321]

rr to 25 and push turn
or even rr allin
either is better than folding IMO

although maybe a call then c/r allin on nearly any turn may be best

[mvdgaag]

[ QUOTE ]
rr to 25 and push turn
or even rr allin
either is better than folding IMO

although maybe a call then c/r allin on nearly any turn may be best

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow!

I fold this all the time. On a drawy board with an agressive opponent I reraise. I find it strange to hear this from someone with as many posts as you. Could you explain?

[DaycareInferno]

actually, i think i will ammend that to call > fold > 3bet. a random is probably more likely to be bluffing, have something like TT or Kx than to have a better hand.

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
rr to 25 and push turn
or even rr allin
either is better than folding IMO

although maybe a call then c/r allin on nearly any turn may be best

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow!

I fold this all the time. On a drawy board with an agressive opponent I reraise. I find it strange to hear this from someone with as many posts as you. Could you explain?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have only been playing NL6m for about 200 of my posts [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]..don't take my advice too seriously

honestly though, I am strangely confident that folding sucks here

I think we show a profit by pulling any of the things I said above...even 3betting the flop

keep in mind that I play 25NL and my opinion is based off of what I have seen there (I think we show a clear profit at 25NL..I would assume it is not so clear at 50NL)...so if 50NL is has considerably better players than 25NL...or if random villains turn out to be decent TAGs much more often at 50NL..then I may be wrong...

still, I think, folding sucks..and the only real alternative is getting it allin one way or another as I described above..

[Prodigy54321]

guys do random villains not raise flop c-bets like this at 50NL with anything but 55 or 22 or a slowplayed AA or something??

I can't imagine that is the case

there is no way we are beat here more often than ahead IMO..

still the possible reason for folding is as others have mentioned, the fact that even if we are ahead more than behind, we lose the full stack when we are behind, and probably won't get many biters when we are ahead..

but seriously, I see people do this at 25NL with any K, mid PPs or slowplayed hands like QQ or JJ that they for some reason decide it's a good time to raise with...and what is more..they're quite happy to get it in here...

I acknowledge that 50NL is not 25NL...but my imagination can't see a rise in skill level that would make me fold this

[mvdgaag]

I haven't got much experience at 50NL 6max either. ATM I'm at 5NL FR grinding it out and it seems to be full of nits that are incapable of doing this without a set/overpair. It is harder to win at 5NL than it was at 25NL, really... They must have poisoned my mind [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]...

I feel 66-QQ would flat call hoping hero cbet with air and gives up. KQ might raise, but lower kings hardly ever call a raise PF and don't dare to reraise hero with a crap kicker if he was the preflop agressor...

We are left with AA (unlikely), KK (very unlikely) 55, 22 and KQ (most likely suited). Is this way too small of a range to put him on?

[Prodigy54321]

I also want to mention something that I have said in other threads and I thought a bit about as my time as a STT player..

lets consider ranges...both the villains raise for raising this flop and his range for getting it in if we decide to do something crazy like 3bet

(first of all, if the villain could have 2 pair here, then it is also likely that he's a donkey and we're good against him enough here to justify playing past this flop)

so we're afraid of??? 55 and 22 obviously (and probably AA as well)

so maybe a range like 22, 55, AA, AK, KQ, KJ, KT is likely.. well that's just great and it may sound reasonable but to make decisions based only on this range is absurd IMO

I think it lends itself well to my little pet idea that when a range can't get much tighter, but can get much looser, we are probably considering too tight a range

if our "read" is off here...where is it going to go?...it can't get much tighter...but it can certainly get looser..any K any mid PP, any pair, a complete whiff?...hell, maybe this guy just raises c-bets like it's his job

the same if true of our opinion of, say, what he'll call with if we decide to just 3bet allin on the flop (just for the sake of argument)

what will his call with? Only 22, 55, AA, AK and maybe KQ?...again, WAYYYY too tight IMO..he simply can't get much tighter here..but he can sure as hell get much looser, not to mention that 3betting allin here seems to send an odd # of villain into callers with crap like mid PPs here

again, this is just my experience at 25NL and a little thought about what 50NL will be like...

I don't blame you if you ignore me..I just wanted to give a few thoughts..maybe spark some more thought or invite someone to tell me that I'm wrong and why...

I think it all comes to together...his preflop range, his raising range here, and his range that he'll get in with...to make getting it allin in some way profitable.

EDIT: I should also add that I have had a terrible headache and a fever for the past couple days and I hallucinate and [censored] when I have a fever...so I might just be a bumbling idiot right now [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[ICMoney]

There was a similar poat in HSNL and one standard line is to call and then bet 2/3 on turn.