PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop

[neverforgetlol]

jesus what the hell are you doing, this isn't holdem, AA usually isn't the nuts

[daboyz715]

I need to elaborate a little more on my last point. By rerasing preflpp, the whole table knows you have aces. Aces are a very vulnerable hand, and everyone in O8 knows that, so people play them scared. By folding here, you let everyone know that you will fold aces to any raise.

The chance that he has a seven is small. You have 4 cards, and there are 3 cards in the flop making 7 known cards. So there are unknown cards, and 2 people in the hand. So what is the chance that out of 8 cards (the two player's 4 cards hands), one will be a seven? It is way under 50 percent, so the chance he has a 7 is not great.

Also, he knows 2 of your cards (AA). So that means you have 2 cards that could be a 7, making it EXTREMELY unlikely that you have one.

Basically, he knows much more information about your hand then you do about his. He knows if he pushes here (especially if has seen you lay down this hand before), that you are very likely to fold.

He can push here with a23, a2 spades, or any a2 with counterfeit protection.

If you are going to play aces like this, you should just fold them preflop and save yourself the two raises, because you will fold to any contest. You can't put yourself in this position to call away all your chips.

In this situation, once you raise to 40 you have to call his all in. But what you should have done is this...

Solution: At a table where your reraise won't get anyone to fold, don't bother raising preflop. You give away information without getting any.


Call his 8 dollar bet. If a blank comes on turn (high non spade)and he fires again, give him credit for the 7. If he checks, I bet pot putting him on A2 spades. It gets much more tricky if a low card comes. More than likely, he will fire again so I just check call down unless a spade or 4 comes out and then I definitely fold.

The chance that is has a 7 is low but the chance that he has a2 or a3 7 is extremely low. If he beats me to the high and low, then thats O8 for you but it is very unlikely.

[niss]

[ QUOTE ]
Solution: At a table where your reraise won't get anyone to fold, don't bother raising preflop. You give away information without getting any.

[/ QUOTE ]

The rest of your post is somewhat cogent, but this is terrible advice. He has aces, a wheel card, and a nut flush draw. Bang this hand pre-flop every time.

The basis of the "problem" you've identified exists only if OP is known raiser pre-flop of AAxx hands only. Since OP is someone who has been around these parts for a while, I assume his pre-flop raises are not limited to AAxx, his adversaries would be incorrect to assume automatically that he has AA because he raised, and the notion that he has laid his hand open by raising pre-flop is incorrect.

[Bigka79]

daboyz is this a gimmick account. i dont see why someone would join today and try to make such a strong point on this hand. i have a feeling Daboyz is OP trying to defend his action.

AA is a nice hand in plo8 but not even close to a lock. i completely agree with neverforgetlol, this hand is no where near the nuts. tons of hands have us beat and i pose the question that i usually do at this point. what hands push all in after the strength that we have shown that we beat?
- brief answer none unless someone is donkin stacks then this would have been noted in the original post.

i dont think this play can EVER be made without a strong read on a player and i dont think you have the reads to do this

[Borys313]

This is all so bad I wanna puke.

Hero has 45% equity vs A23x spades
45% equity vs A345 no spades
38% equity vs A235 spades
and 10% equity vs A27x



Thats pretty much the range you might face + some bluffs but its very rare to catch someone bluffing on flop with 2 lows out there.

[daboyz715]

Instead of anaylsing my critique, you just say it's wrong, which adds nothing to this post.

There is 23 dollars in the pot on the flop. UTG bets 8, so folding here would be -EV for Hero unless he puts UTG on A27, hence I say just call.

I disagreed with his flop raise, but once he raises to 45 and UTG comes over the top, the pot now is 160 and it costs Hero 50 to call. Again, unless he puts Hero on A2 7 it is -EV for him to fold.

Hilo is not a game of just figuring out when you are ahead and going all in. The most profitable is being able to know when you are behind so when you are given the right odds to catch up and you do, you get paid off.

Clearly this player made a mistake on this hand, which I stated in my post was his raise on the flop. Bigka and Borys, point out where in my post I am incorrect, rather than just throwing numbers and accusations out there.

[niss]

His raise on the flop was absolutely correct. Please stop saying that was his mistake. I am sure that anyone with any reasonable experience playing this game disagrees with you.

He hit what may have proven to be a crappy flop. Whether he played it correctly or not may be subject to debate but seems to be more player dependent than anything.

[daboyz715]

What does the raise on the flop accomplish? It just opens the door for UTG to reraise.

[Borys313]

[ QUOTE ]


This hand is 50 50 to me. If I know this player to be a nut peddler, easy fold. But if I think this player has any aggressive tendencies at all, I push.
By folding here, you are conceding folding aces to anyone. Any paired board, someone raises you and you fold. This is classic weak tight in PLO8.
When I play, if I see someone how has obvious aces, I will push this board a high percentage of the time, ESPECIALLY, which A2 spades on a semi bluff. I call this a high percentage of the time.
You very rarely will be beat by the high and low.
Final read: player has Aspades 23 x.
Easy push.

[/ QUOTE ]

First this is not a simple paired board but 776 which fits somehow into vast majority of so called solid hands.

Notice that you dont have the A of spades so quite likely he is in villians hand.

I have to agree that some tircky lagtards will try to make you fold AA, but none of them is so stupid to do it on 776 because if you have AA2x you will call him at lightning speed.

And your arguments sound a bit like you would treat poker as an ego thing and therefore you say no one makes me fold aces. Are you scared to look foolish when he shows his bluff?

And the numbers I gave are up to the point, because if you calculate the average equity vs such rabge it will be around 35-40%.

So if you shove you in bad shape bacause all bluffs fold and only the good hands that are either slightly ahead or have you crushed call.

[niss]

Uh, nothing really I guess except that it folded out four hands, which increased hero's chance of scooping a big (raised) pot, and gave hero position over everyone else that played.