Leave Michael Vick Alone...

[DVaut1]

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That animal would not otherwise exist except that someone bred it for fighting. And it wants to fight too, trust me on that, it's bred so that in its heart of hearts, it wants to fight.

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As much as I "trust you", dogs aren't exactly capable of consent, so it seems laughable to me that we would conclude they "want to fight". It might be true, but let's not assign too high a confidence level to that based on our "trust in you". Such arguments could legitimize a whole host of behaviors that I think most of us agree are unconscionable like intercourse with unconscious people, taking money from the mentally ill/retarded, etc.; essentially any action taken against someone/something incapable of consent could be satisfied by the "but they really wanted X done to them, in their heart of hearts" claim. That's why most people's ethical paradigms typically don't allow for "but they really wanted X done to them, in their heart of hearts" as legitimate justifications for such behavior.

[Copernicus]

I agree...leave him alone.

After you attach electrodes to his testicles and run a few amps through his repulsive person.

[morphball]

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I disagree with Sklansky that dogs aren't sentient; if anything, 'self-awareness' or 'sentience' likely isn't some discrete quality, but exists on some kind of spectrum. So if dogs are feeling pain -- and it's almost undeniable this is the case -- we should weigh that accordingly.

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I agree with this completely, but why is it relevant? If it's alright to eat a cow, which probably slightly less sentient that a dog, or a pig, which is probably more sentient that a dog, why should dogs be given special treatment?

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Given that we should all concede dogs feel pain, but obviously can't consent to fighting, I doubt causing such pain for a non-consenting entity for mere entertainment value qualifies as acceptably ethical.


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Nice run around, cows and pigs can't consent to being eaten, so this point seems irrelevant. Moreover, if you truly believe that certain dogs don't want to fight, you're purposefully wearing blinders. When I lived in Northern Virginia, the shelters were immediately putting down certain dogs instead of adopting them because they were bred for fighting and were too aggresssive.

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Pointing out people's hypocrisies when it comes to meat eating ("but isn't a really good steak just a form of entertainment?") could just be pointing out some other form of cruelty, and doesn't legitimize dog fighting.

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Why not? You are just stating a conclusion. If it's alright to slaughter animals for food, its because animals are not humans and are not accorded the same right to life as humans are. So, there can be no logical reason for dog fighting to be illegal, because dogs are animals.

[morphball]

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As much as I "trust you", dogs aren't exactly capable of consent, so it seems laughable to me that we would conclude they "want to fight". It might be true, but let's not assign too high a confidence level to that based on our "trust in you". Such arguments could legitimize a whole host of behaviors that I think most of us agree are unconscionable like intercourse with unconscious people, taking money from the mentally ill/retarded, etc.; essentially any action taken against someone/something incapable of consent could be satisfied by the "but they really wanted X done to them, in their heart of hearts" claim. That's why most people's ethical paradigms typically don't allow for "but they really wanted X done to them, in their heart of hearts" as legitimate justifications for such behavior.

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Dude, you just argued dogs were sentient, this stuff is irrelevant. I suspect you you arguing emotions instead of logic.

[Vagos]

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I think it needs to be pointed out is that dog fighting dogs are bred precisely for fighting. That animal would not otherwise exist except that someone bred it for fighting. And it wants to fight too, trust me on that, it's bred so that in its heart of hearts, it wants to fight.


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Were they also bred to be electrocuted, drowned or hung after their fighting days were over?

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So, if you want to call Michael Vick a murderer and call him evil incarnate, then make sure that all of the following apply to yourself:

1. You are 100% vegan, and by this I mean, not only do you refrain from eating the delicious flesh of murdered cows, pigs, chickens, lambs, calves (we'll leave fish out since they don't have any feelings)--you also refrain from wearing leather goods and furs.

2. You do not take, nor have you ever taken any pharmaceutical drug that was ever tested on dogs.

I think it's interesting to observe that Americans don't get so upset about bull fighting, which is even crueler than dog fighting. Perhaps, its because that sport is harder to separate from all those delicious burger places you drive by every day.

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Come on man, you honestly don't see the difference between eating meat and finding the act of drowning or hanging a dog as slightly disturbing?

[bobman0330]

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If it's alright to slaughter animals for food, its because animals are not humans and are not accorded the same right to life as humans are. So, there can be no logical reason for dog fighting to be illegal, because dogs are animals.

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I know this forum loves its extremes, but you seem to be ignoring the possible position that animals have less right to life than humans, but more than zero.

Also, it's really comical that you can write the quoted text, then call other people out for not being logical.

[niss]

I fail to see how otherwise intelligent people do not understand the difference between torturing animals to death for the sole purpose of entertainment and the slaughter of animals for the purpose of providing food.

[MrMon]

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I fail to see how otherwise intelligent people...

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Naaaah. Too easy.

[vhawk01]

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I think it needs to be pointed out is that dog fighting dogs are bred precisely for fighting. That animal would not otherwise exist except that someone bred it for fighting. And it wants to fight too, trust me on that, it's bred so that in its heart of hearts, it wants to fight.


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Were they also bred to be electrocuted, drowned or hung after their fighting days were over?

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So, if you want to call Michael Vick a murderer and call him evil incarnate, then make sure that all of the following apply to yourself:

1. You are 100% vegan, and by this I mean, not only do you refrain from eating the delicious flesh of murdered cows, pigs, chickens, lambs, calves (we'll leave fish out since they don't have any feelings)--you also refrain from wearing leather goods and furs.

2. You do not take, nor have you ever taken any pharmaceutical drug that was ever tested on dogs.

I think it's interesting to observe that Americans don't get so upset about bull fighting, which is even crueler than dog fighting. Perhaps, its because that sport is harder to separate from all those delicious burger places you drive by every day.

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Come on man, you honestly don't see the difference between slicing a pigs throat and watching it bleed to death and finding the act of drowning or hanging a dog as slightly disturbing?

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Keep the comparison consistent please. Alternatively, I could have changed it to "the difference between eating meat and hanging out with friends" if the point was to diminish them both, rather than sensationalize them both. But you don't get to diminish one and sensationalize the other.

[vhawk01]

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I fail to see how otherwise intelligent people do not understand the difference between torturing animals to death for the sole purpose of entertainment and the slaughter of animals for the purpose of providing food.

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Because some of us actually DO understand, which you apparently don't. The implicit argument here is that food is necessary to survival, whereas entertainment isn't. I hope you can see how laughably incorrect it is to argue that slaughtering pigs is necessary to human survival.

So yeah, some people like pork chops, some people like dog fights.