is it better to fold pre-flop in an easy game w/ jacks?

[awakuni]

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When you play against a table full of bad players with different stack sizes, the value of your chips is close to linear, and there is little reason to be risk-averse.

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as just a side thought, if i thought i was a much better player than everybody else at the table aren't my chips even more valuable because in theory i can do more with them and should actually be a little more risk-adverse?

[Gonso]

If you though he was tilting, sure, no problem isolating and playing him HU. I definitely don't want to take a flop with JJ multiway though, so for me calling is still not an option. If you jam and some doofus calls with AT or whatever, hey fine.

As originally posted, eh. I'm not suggesting you turn fold off a massive +EV spot, but as posted I can't say that it was not knowing the guy. I'd have to credit him with a hand as posted, and in the abstract I don't think I'd be far ahead enough to justify putting the rest of my stack in jeopardy... you have 5 players YTA, although at least two should certainly be folding

[awakuni]

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so in this case, with really bad players, it might've been better to fold and get my money in a better spot?


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Wouldn't you rather be in that spot with your money, his money and the limpers' money when they all fold to your push?


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unfortunately, part of the players bad play is that they'll call off huge portions of their stacks with nitty hands, so there is no guarantee that they would fold to an all-in. and part of the reason why i started this thread was to figure out if i should play a big pot pre-flop with the lower end of the group one hands, or pass and make money playing medium and big pots with really bad players who constantly make mistakes both pre-flop and post-flop.

[BiiiiigChips]

Why would you even for a second think about folding Jacks here? It's the $40 max buy-in game at the commerce. I'd probably even go all-in.

[ginko]

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i was at the $40 nl game at commerce and the game was really easy as people were playing pretty badly (going broke with one pair, calling draws oop and without the right price, etc). so early in the session, after three limpers the co goes all-in for $19, i have jacks on the button. i have about $100. is this a situation that i have to call, or could i lay it down and wait b/c the players are so bad. do 2+2ers advocate giving up some pre-flop equity when the players are so weak and that there will be plenty of opportunities to make money later in the session by taking advantage of their horrible plays?

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If you're ahead of his range(random suited junk, any ace, any pair, any two broadway cards, if hes tilting), push. If you are behind his range(AA KK), fold. If you are tied with his range(something like TT+,AQ+), you can call or fold.


If you are properly bankrolled, you should be making the most EV+ play no matter what in a cash game.

[bigbrett]

I don't think I would ever fold this hand for $20. I think I'm with the crowd that would make it $40-50 to go, hoping to isolate against AK, and be willing to push the rest if I get re-raised again for my whole stack. I'm not crazy about going all-in preflop with jacks, but these games it's probably not a bad play

[Lady Ashley]

Were you the very next one to act? How big were the limpers / blinds stacks? Maybe going all in the hopes of forcing limpers out and isolating the $19 guy would be the way to go - but then I am still learning [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[pzhon]

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make it $40-50 to go, hoping to isolate against AK, and be willing to push the rest

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That's not optimistic enough. In this type of game, don't be surprised if you isolate J9.

In the $100 max game at Foxwoods with a $2 big blind, a player pushed in EP for $20, and was called in LP. The pusher had QT, the caller JT.

People are too quick to imagine a coinflip is going to happen. If someone has TT, people will say the opponent has AK or QJ. If someone has AK, people will say the opponent is playing 44. When people play weak hands like the nuts, don't wait for KK to get involved.

In a past SNG hand, someone trapped with 55 against a big blind who would always push against limpers. Some people said it was a bad play, just asking for a coin-flip, but it picked up a lot of dead money, and it's pretty likely for a random hand to have at least one 2, 3, 4, or 5. The big blind had 52o.

[mce86]

Thats an opportunity right there to take advantage of horrible play.

[drzen]

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so in this case, with really bad players, it might've been better to fold and get my money in a better spot?


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Wouldn't you rather be in that spot with your money, his money and the limpers' money when they all fold to your push?


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unfortunately, part of the players bad play is that they'll call off huge portions of their stacks with nitty hands

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This just doesn't make any sense at all. How can they be nits if they will call off their stacks loosely? What is a "nitty hand"?

Frankly, your read is all over the place. They're either willing to call allins or they're nits. Not both.

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so there is no guarantee that they would fold to an all-in. and part of the reason why i started this thread was to figure out if i should play a big pot pre-flop with the lower end of the group one hands, or pass and make money playing medium and big pots with really bad players who constantly make mistakes both pre-flop and post-flop.

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Even if three call with the top 10% only, you have a 4% equity edge. You make your own decisions about who is making preflop mistakes.