In the bb with offsuit Ax - one liners welcome

[Heisenb3rg]

Equity calcs are very overrated..

A2o is garbage against a tightish range, especially OOP, because they can own you when your behind much more than the oppoiste.. And you will be behind more often.

There's isn't a board where you can minimize mistakes unless you hit two pair or better , a straight or a gutshot draw with both your cards playing.

Every other board he's going to suck value out of you.
If you get agro with a pair of aces, he's probabily getting 3BB + 2 SB out of you when your behind, but you'll only get 2BB + 2 SB or 2SB when your ahead.

If you play WA/WB he'll get another BB out of you every time.

If you call down UI on a low board, he can value rape you with AK+. Call down on a one high card + low board he can value rape you with pairs (which he'll have plenty of).

A pair of deuces is often going to be behind to an overpair and also have to pay the maximium.

If you turn your hand into a bluff, you can't face any heat from rebluffs to draw..

[geormiet]

I don't think it's as hard to play as everyone thinks. I'm not gonna get value raped by AK. I'm not going to blindly chk call down on a JT4 flop, and even if I were chances are he won't 3 barrel it for value. If an A flops most of the time he won't have one and I'll get good value from it by letting him do the betting, and if I flop a pair of deuces I will play accordingly.

I could definitely be wrong, but it seems like the equity makes playing any ace hu against a 6 max raiser with reasonable stats +ev.

FWIW if there is another caller then I will fold A2o.

[admiralfluff]

There only has to be 1SB of reverse implied odds for this to be breakeven. We're out of poisition with an often dominated hand. You really think we don't lose more than 1SB on average against a competent villain? I think heisenberg did a pretty good job explaining how we likely lose 1BB. Could you provide some reasoning for how we don't?

[geormiet]

Ok, well, I will talk about when an A flops because that is our main worry? 1 sb in expectation is a lot, and I don't buy the 3bb vs. 2bb theory. If you are ag good player and flop an ace you're going to play in a way that maximizes your expectation, not always going chk call down allowing you to get valued badly. Instead you would choose one of multiple lines depending on the situation, maybe between

-chk call down,
-chk raise and call down if raised on turn,
-chk raise and fold to turn raise
-chk raise and call turn raise but fold to river bet
-chk call down and bet river,
-chk call flop, turn and fold river

I suppose if we feel like our opponent is better than us postflop then folding might be best. Otherwise I think we can just go by the equity calcs alone and play good postflop, and defending Ax is a +ev situation.

[sweetjazz]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think it's as hard to play as everyone thinks. I'm not gonna get value raped by AK. I'm not going to blindly chk call down on a JT4 flop, and even if I were chances are he won't 3 barrel it for value. If an A flops most of the time he won't have one and I'll get good value from it by letting him do the betting, and if I flop a pair of deuces I will play accordingly.

I could definitely be wrong, but it seems like the equity makes playing any ace hu against a 6 max raiser with reasonable stats +ev.

FWIW if there is another caller then I will fold A2o.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your equity is good because vmacosta gave UTG a lot of broadwayish hands. And you lose a lot of that equity because there are a lot of flops and flop + turn combos that you have to fold to. Are you calling flop + turn on a K 8 7 4 board? Either you are letting KJ and TT get value out of you when you have little equity or you are giving up your equity edge versus QJ and JTs.

I think a really good player can minimize his losses with A2o and maybe even frustrate others to the point that his playing hand the hand is overall close to EV neutral (adding in tilt of opponents, having them lessen willing to try to steal your blind, making loose calldowns later, etc.).

But that's a lot of work for not much of a payoff.

[vmacosta]

A few comments:

1. I thought the utg range I used is pretty standard--please tell me if I'm wrong.

2. I have never called with A2o in that spot. However I don't think I usually call a reasonable hijack raiser with A6o in that spot and now I am thinking that might be a decent sized mistake.

3. I have reason to believe that geormiet is much better than your typical tag and, based on heisenberg's nice analysis, it sounds like 1 bb of RIOs would be if the guy in position has a skill edge.

4. I don't know Eric Froelich from Doyle Brunson, so if he's not a typical tag, then nevermind.

[sweetjazz]

vma, I don't think your UTG range is completely out of line, but it's on the loose side for sure. I wouldn't be surprised if that is pretty close to AKQJTs' range. A lot of people will fold the marginal hands in the range -- QJo, KTo, K9s, A8o, etc. -- and that generally will lower A2o's equity a bit.

I don't doubt that geormiet plays well postflop, but I am trying to analyze it from the point of view of playing perfectly versus hand ranges. The problem is that you are usually against someone like Froelich whose range tends to crush A2o, or you're against AKQJTs where your equity is good but he is gonna bet every street until you show resistance and is basically never folding a better hand. It's even worse when players can find a lot of A-high river value bets and can mix their bluffing up by sometimes giving up on the turn, sometimes giving up on the river and sometimes (though rarely) firing three barrels.

Like I said, I think if you play perfect you can make this a pretty neutral EV decision. If your opponent makes some significant mistakes [but it depends which mistakes -- a lot of the mistakes that AKQJTs make are exactly the ones where you want a hand other than A2o to exploit] or I am missing some places where you can make up ground, then your EV is probably slightly positive. But it's a lot of work and if the associated variance/stress of these situations ends up to leading your game to deteriorate at all, then playing these hands becomes -EV. For me, I'd rather pass up this kind of situation unless I am playing solely to focus on improving and seeking out tough spots to learn from. If I am playing to make a few bucks -- which is usually the case -- then I make more money playing more hands with a big edge than I do trying to squeeze every last drop of EV out of every hand.

[Heisenb3rg]

The difference between the value a hand obtains postflop and it's preflop equity isn't because how well you play it.. There are many other factors.

Often you force yourself into situations where you cannot help but make FTOP mistakes, because your playing against a balanced and powerful range.
For example if you get agressive and he raises the turn with strong draws + better cards.. if he has more better cards than you in his raising range, there is absolutly nothing you can do to avoid losing value. You have to showdown, and you have to pay him off.

If you play passivly, and he bluffs the river accordingly, you will simply have to call river bets when your behind because it is profitable to... But he is still making more money from you than you are from him. There is nothing you can do about it.

It's the nature of the game and dealing with imperfect information and hand ranges as opposed to their current hand.. If you can read there hole cards then sure, but when playing against a strong range you simply CANNOT play A2o well postflop.

You could play it better than your oppoenets would if they were in your situation sure, but thats about it.

[admiralfluff]

[ QUOTE ]
You could play it better than your oppoenets would if they were in your situation sure, but thats about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

And against most players, I don't think this would be enough to compensate for the positional disadvantage. For those who call any A, what are you going to do when the flop comes 665 or a 79T flop? It's pretty easy to play when we flop an A, or maybe even easier when we flop a 2 sometimes. It's the ragged flops that are really troublesome. We know villain will bet the flop, and usually the turn with a UI KQ or QJ, but if we regularly call down with A2o we're going to get thrashed. Having to throw away the best hand often (a result of the type of hand we have combined with a positional disadvantage) negates our hot/cold preflop equity estimate.

[admiralfluff]

Could someone who does call A2o-A5o from the BB look up stats, and list how often you actually end up playing these hands from the BB, and how you're doing with them? I'm curious because I usually fold A2o to a CO steal, and often to a button steal, and am worried I'm missing out.