Beyond UIGEA, regs, Kyl et al., etc.

[justaPlayer]

Well, I am a member of the PPA from when Stars ran the membership tourneys, and I do talk to people about the game, but I am afraid as to the political process I am a little naiive unfortunately. I currently live in the very conservative and follow-george-bush-at-all-costs-like-a-lemming state of GEORGIA, so I have always assumed that any action I attempted to take would fall on deaf ears. Is this wrong? Could I write to some other states' reps. at random and be heard? If so, I will. (This assumes that they even read letters, which I very strongly doubt.)

I would not mind being active about this cause, I just really don't know a.) how and b.) whether it will make much difference. I almost feel like the best way to fight them is to just ignore them, re-marginalize them, and go about my business.

I do agree with Engineer about the principle of the thing. It is horrendous what is being attempted. I also agree that short of the third antichrist no future administration could be worse than this one has been. I can't believe the damage that has been done to this country, and, yes, I do fear the next "I've got nothing to lose, this is my last hurrah" year on the part of the "president."

Thank you also Skallagrim for your response. I am glad to know that you at least think it will be able to continue in some form, as I do.

Thanks everybody who has responded so far.

[justaPlayer]

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Interesting post. Two quick comments ....

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I'd really like to compliment some of the forum's regulars like Skallagrim, OldBookGuy, a few others, and particularly The Engineer not only for their intrepid work in advocating for the cause, but also simply for their continuous thought-provoking posts and ideas.


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I also applaud TheEngineer! I'm sure we all do.

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I have determined simply to live my life as I see fit, subtly, quietly, "off the radar". It sickens me that the assumption implicit in all spheres of American life nowadays is that we are subjects of the state.

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Now, here's the big message: You NEED to get your hands on a copy of "How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World" by the late Harry Browne. Out of print, but available on ebay from time to time. This book can change your life.

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I will seek it out, thank you. Though I am probably already living by most of the principle therein. Thank you, too, frommagio, for your reply; I was writing my previous response as you wrote, I guess, or else I would have thanked you too.

[justaPlayer]

and OBG, din' forget you!

[oldbookguy]

Player, first thanks for the compliment, it means alot to myself and the others I am sure.

Do they actually read the letters personally; not likely though staff does and they do reply.

A good place to start to be active is use the PPA WRITE Link @ www.pokerplayersalliance.org or go directly to the house web site www.house.gov there is a drop down list to find your representative that then leads to the contact page with phone numbers, addresses and e-mail.

In writing, there are many good letters here in 2p2 that I do not mind having copied and reused / edited to fit the representative.

Every letter counts. I read, they count the numbers of responses to each side of the issue to sometimes help them decide.

Good luck and start writing / calling!

obg

[Skallagrim]

This has got to be the friendliest thread ever on 2+2 [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]. I like it actually.

Being from Georgia, justaplayer, does mean that you will likely not have a whole lot of opportunity to influence the political scene, so there is no reason to go crazy with the letter writing. I would suggest that you write at least one letter (and feel free to use Engineer's samples, he does write great letters) to your particular congressperson. Even if your Rep is one of the bible thumpers, he or she must recognize that a lot of Good ol' Boys in Georgia like poker, and letters may at least make that Rep less likely to actively oppose us, even if it never convinces them to actively support us. Not much point in writing Georgia senators at this point, not until the house actually passes a bill.

And dont underestimate the power of just talking about this to people. Politicians live by polls just as much as they do by campaign contributions. Every time a poll shows support for online poker we gain a little more. The person you educate today about poker might well be the person polled tomorrow.

Thanks again justaplayer, if every poker player had your attitude and good intentions we would be well on the way to some sort of victory.

Skallagrim

[Fonzi]

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I'd really like to compliment some of the forum's regulars like Skallagrim, OldBookGuy, a few others, and particularly The Engineer.' Thanks for the kind words by the way.'I also applaud TheEngineer! I'm sure we all do.'Thank you, too, frommagio, for your reply'and OBG, din' forget you! 'Player, first thanks for the compliment, it means alot to myself and the others I am sure.'This has got to be the friendliest thread ever on 2+2 . I like it actually.

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DONT MAKE ME VOMIT! [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

J/K, I love you guys...
now let me get back to my hate forum.

The Fonz

[counthomer]

Unfortunately I disagree with the general sentiment on the probable impact of the regulations. As someone who works in the industry, I've seen first hand the steady passing of payment options, and I can see the red sunset in the horizon when you read some of the scattered reports that are starting to appear.

At the moment it feels like we are ok, but I would suggest that is merely because the demise has slowed to a crawl in advance of the publication of the regulations. Look at some of the things that have happened in recent history:

-The loss of PayPal.
-The early loss of NETeller (originally they were intending to stay until the regs).
-The withdrawal of FirePay and Citadel.
-The decline in Visa and Mastercard acceptance.
-The rise and now decline of pre-paid cards.
-The introduction of new payment options which are vastly more expensive than before.
-The freezing of funds in the NETeller case.
-The refusal by certain banks to cash gaming cheques (limited in scope I know, but a potential omen for all those who claim it is technically impossible).
-Reports of banks refusing to open new accounts for gaming companies in the Isle of Man, Antigua and Gibraltar.
-The withdrawal from the gaming market of some of the most risk averse banks when the UIGEA was passed.

All of these represent a slow tightening of the screws, and there is no reason to assume that the regulations will simply rubber stamp the current halfway house arrangement. Here are some general insights that I here quite often from other people in the industry which may be of interest:

1. The regulations as published may be ineffective in wording, but the implementation of zero risk strategies by banks with any links to the US markets is a massive (if the the fundamental) concern. It would be infeasible for the gaming operators to end up relying on the few banks with no US presence (as it would make shutting the payment flow down simple).
2. The owners of some of the major sites do not have a limitless appetite for risk, and that appetite is directly proportional to business sustainability in other markets. I don't work for any of the big companies, but I think it is common knowledge that you will see Pokerstars leaving before the likes of FullTilt. The question is then what the implications of a cascade of new players will have on any remaining payment options at the remaining sites.
3. There are 'unknowns' in the UIGEA, specifically the site blocking provisions. Again, these are technologically impractical, but the reality remains that they don't have to operate perfectly to do huge damage. If you can knock out access to a site for even a day or so, you are going to put a lot of pressure on the owners and force a lot of casual players to ask questions.

I am therefore one of a large group of people in the industry who think the publication of the regulations will be the end of poker (as it currently exists).

But...

I am also one of the people in the industry who thinks that once the bloodshed is over, a new dawn awaits. I have personally been working in a small team of specialists for the past six months on new products which specifically respond to the UIGEA. I expect that my company will have something available by early 2008, and I fully expect some other 'new poker' initiatives to appear by then as well.

I can't talk about specifics, but the solution to the problem (in the short term) was always going to be entrepreneurial. The smart companies went away, hired the right people and got to work. The rest tried to leverage the WTO angle (which anyone with half an interest in international trade knows is the domain of big politics, and was therefore always likely to result in a negotiated settlement which was unlikely to help us - not that Jay Cohen wants to answer any difficult questions on that), or got involved in initiatives like iMEGA (which I am told has always been viewed by the background architects as a long shot).

I would also like to put on record my admiration for the likes of Engineer, Skallagrim and OBG who have posted and rallied people when it seemed all hope was lost. While I never believed that the short term solution lied in legislation, I have joined in the email/phone/letter push at every opportunity, not least as it is a major point of principle.

In the long run it is vital we fight for our rights, and push for a scenario where we do not fear the next stage of the fight. Getting our opinion out now will certainly help if/when Kyl and Goodlatte try to go after these new products.

Upon reflection I must therefore be an optimist (despite my pessimism at the immediate effects of the regs), but I think it is important people get a sense of perspective on the short term challenges (hence my post).

[xxThe_Lebowskixx]

"I am also one of the people in the industry who thinks that once the bloodshed is over, a new dawn awaits. I have personally been working in a small team of specialists for the past six months on new products which specifically respond to the UIGEA."

huh?

[counthomer]

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"I am also one of the people in the industry who thinks that once the bloodshed is over, a new dawn awaits. I have personally been working in a small team of specialists for the past six months on new products which specifically respond to the UIGEA."

huh?

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Not sure what you mean by 'huh' - there are teams of people in most gaming companies that work on new products. I happen to be part of (a small) one at my company, and I'm sure that there are similar teams at all the better companies.

It should also be no stretch of the imagination to assume that these teams have been working on variations which will survive the UIGEA regs. We have two or three initiatives in the works; I'd be shocked if some of the poker companies weren't in a similar position.

[Skallagrim]

Counthomer provides some pretty well thought out history and speculation, but the future is still all speculation. And I too am aware of entrepreneurs working to provide various kinds of UIGEA compliant funding mechanisms.

At this point we all have to just wait and see: the regs could be pretty useless; the regs could be pretty severe, or anywhere in between. Same with the resolve and ability of DOJ enforcement. And while bank fears are a major concern, keeping the real source and/or recipient of money from a bank is not that difficult, even if the regs are so severe as to really make the banks work at stopping us.

And after the regs come out and new funding methods for poker get underway, thats when the real fun will begin: real litigation! And even if the litigation fails, the internet just cannot be effectively policed - people still get their hands on child porn, an internet product, unlike poker, universally condemned and outlawed.

So I still stand by my original bottom line: there will always be some way for the truly determined US player to play.

Skallagrim