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#11
07-14-2007, 03:08 PM
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Re: 50 NL: AKs making top pair calling down
[ QUOTE ]
Well I'm just saying that most TAGs are going to 3 barrel KK, QQ on a board like this OOP. [/ QUOTE ] Hm. I tend to disagree. Cbet, yes, bet turn, yes. But push AI on the river against a villain who has raised preflop and then called all the way on an A-hi board? I don't think so, actually. That would be a really gross overplay especially because both players are 150+BBs deep. That would even be a bad play with AQ. 
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#12
07-14-2007, 03:10 PM
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Re: 50 NL: AKs making top pair calling down
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I like the call down because you are keeping the pot small and there is no value in a raise because villain will need a pretty strong hand to make a call on this board. Only gutshots are possible and if he has KK, QQ he has an easy laydown. I fold to the river push though. This looks like a value bet. I don't know which busted draw or mini-pair he could bluff here. The best thing you can hope for is a split. I only call this under very specific circumstances and even then my hands are shaking. [/ QUOTE ] The entire stack goes in, that aint keeping it small [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] On the river, yes. I fold there. Both players are deep and villain is betting "only" a half pot. The secret about reraised pots is though, that you'll be all-in by the river if you bet a half pot on every street. So when he pushes the river, you can be pretty sure that you got value bet on the flop and turn. If you raise on the flop or turn, you basically decide to play for your whole stack with TP at that point in time. Being pretty deep, this is actually not what I want to do in a reraise pot against aggressive betting. I rather save 100BBs and fold the river at least 90% confident without history. Edit: additional explanation: keeping the pot small is relative obv. You have SD value here and villain could actually 2barrel a pretty wide range. You lose the absolut minimum this way and can get away from the hand and save a lot of money. Pot control is not only checking behind in position.
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#13
07-14-2007, 03:10 PM
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Re: 50 NL: AKs making top pair calling down
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Well I'm just saying that most TAGs are going to 3 barrel KK, QQ on a board like this OOP. [/ QUOTE ] Hm. I tend to disagree. Cbet, yes, bet turn, yes. But push AI on the river against a villain who has raised preflop and then called all the way on an A-hi board? I don't think so, actually. That would be a really gross overplay especially because both players are 150+BBs deep. That would even be a bad play with AQ. [/ QUOTE ] I meant to say "aren't" that's why I disagree with raising somewhere.
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#14
07-14-2007, 03:11 PM
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Re: 50 NL: AKs making top pair calling down
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Well I'm just saying that most TAGs are going to 3 barrel KK, QQ on a board like this OOP. [/ QUOTE ] Hm. I tend to disagree. Cbet, yes, bet turn, yes. But push AI on the river against a villain who has raised preflop and then called all the way on an A-hi board? I don't think so, actually. That would be a really gross overplay especially because both players are 150+BBs deep. That would even be a bad play with AQ. [/ QUOTE ] Totally agree. Thats why I also like to reraise the flop to find out where I'm at. If he has aces he'll reraise or at least call (and slow down on the turn if he has AK). Find out where you're at on the flop and lose the minimum.
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#15
07-14-2007, 03:15 PM
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Re: 50 NL: AKs making top pair calling down
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Well I'm just saying that most TAGs are going to 3 barrel KK, QQ on a board like this OOP. [/ QUOTE ] Hm. I tend to disagree. Cbet, yes, bet turn, yes. But push AI on the river against a villain who has raised preflop and then called all the way on an A-hi board? I don't think so, actually. That would be a really gross overplay especially because both players are 150+BBs deep. That would even be a bad play with AQ. [/ QUOTE ] I meant to say "aren't" that's why I disagree with raising somewhere. [/ QUOTE ] I don't understand your reasoning here. What would your play be then? You wont reraise the flop, and they bet again on the turn. They wont do it with KK QQ, so basically you're calling down and hope for a split pot against this TAG? I don't think villain would go all the way with a hand that has you beat. Or do you fold a turn where they might fire again with AK/AQ/Ax?
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#16
07-14-2007, 03:16 PM
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Re: 50 NL: AKs making top pair calling down
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Well I'm just saying that most TAGs are going to 3 barrel KK, QQ on a board like this OOP. [/ QUOTE ] Hm. I tend to disagree. Cbet, yes, bet turn, yes. But push AI on the river against a villain who has raised preflop and then called all the way on an A-hi board? I don't think so, actually. That would be a really gross overplay especially because both players are 150+BBs deep. That would even be a bad play with AQ. [/ QUOTE ] Totally agree. Thats why I also like to reraise the flop to find out where I'm at. If he has aces he'll reraise or at least call (and slow down on the turn if he has AK). Find out where you're at on the flop and lose the minimum. [/ QUOTE ] How much would you reraise? 25? So $18 more? That's $2 more than calling to the river. I don't want to be a nit, so lets say it's pretty much the same. And if you reraise the flop, you narrow villain's range considerably and will only get called when you are way behind. Because I think his betting range on the flop and turn is wider than his calling range on the flop, I think I have more equity vs his betting range and I want to play against that. And since we are unlikely to improve (an A might fill him up, a K might make him a straight or a set), I like getting closer to showdown when I put money into the pot, i.e. spread it over multiple streets instead of battling with another deep stacked player with a one-pair holding in a reraised pot on the flop.
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#18
07-14-2007, 03:17 PM
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Re: 50 NL: AKs making top pair calling down
[ QUOTE ]
Find out where you're at on the flop and lose the minimum. [/ QUOTE ] The goal is not to "lose the minimum" it's to get max EV. 4 bet preflop, AK has his range killed. Fold river
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#20
07-14-2007, 03:19 PM
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Re: 50 NL: AKs making top pair calling down
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Well I'm just saying that most TAGs are going to 3 barrel KK, QQ on a board like this OOP. [/ QUOTE ] Hm. I tend to disagree. Cbet, yes, bet turn, yes. But push AI on the river against a villain who has raised preflop and then called all the way on an A-hi board? I don't think so, actually. That would be a really gross overplay especially because both players are 150+BBs deep. That would even be a bad play with AQ. [/ QUOTE ] I meant to say "aren't" that's why I disagree with raising somewhere. [/ QUOTE ] I don't understand your reasoning here. What would your play be then? You wont reraise the flop, and they bet again on the turn. They wont do it with KK QQ, so basically you're calling down and hope for a split pot against this TAG? I don't think villain would go all the way with a hand that has you beat. Or do you fold a turn where they might fire again with AK/AQ/Ax? [/ QUOTE ] If you raise the flop, KK,QQ fold but those better hands like AA, JJ will play (AK and maybe AQ will probably call to re-evaluate) so really you're folding out those 2 hands that might bluff you later and you will lose to AA, JJ. Because of this, raising here has no value. If you just call in position, he might bluff again with KK,QQ, or he can check and you can check to induce a river bluff from him and you gain value that way. Raising to find out where your'e at just seems like a bad idea to me especially when you're WA/WB.
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