Help me to figure it out (75/150 Stars)

[TxRedMan]

Cero Z,

It's hard for me to demonstrate what I'm talking about properly because you didn't give a specific board for the action. My comment about showdown wasn't an end all, be all for every situation, it was provoked by the hand in question and in specific, betting/calling a check raise on that specific river with that specific action leading up to the river bet. However, let me elaborate.

If the board is:

Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

And you are in position with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

And a preflop early position raiser has bet into you on the flop and the turn, and he checks the river, it is correct to bet, and it is correct to call a check raise, in general, and for the sake of discussion.

Take the same board, and consider that we're out of position. Same hand, same board, but this time we have some how check called the flop, check called the turn, and we have a situation on this river. I'm not sure how you play, but this is a standard bet for me. I dont check raise in HU pots very often at all. In general, my philosophy for betting in LO8 is a straight forward one. So I will bet this river for value almost every time. Reason being, the majority of my opponents are competent and will not bet this river with less than a flush. Granted, they will bet roughly 80% of the flushes they make on this river card, but i've found that too many times the river will get checked through when they dont have a flush, but they will payoff with a variety of hands when they dont, including smaller flushes, sets, two pair, and a stubborn or tilty AA. In sum, I feel that check raising has less overall and long term value than betting in spots like these, because of all the times (often) the river gets checked through.

So that being said, with my straight forward approach to betting and relative lack of much FPS in my game, I dont find myself in the situation you described above. The only time I check-raise HU is generally the flop or the turn, for fear of a river getting checked through. So when I do check-raise a river, it's very rare and always with a hand that I can call a three bet with, and in most cases, I have a hand I can 4 bet.

This is of critical importance in my opinion, that is to say going to showdown when you put money in on the river, because with the nature of a split pot game, if you're check raising hands on the river and folding to a three bet, you will end up throwing money away much more often than in any other game where the same play makes sense, i.e., limit hold'em.

In example, I know players who will bet/3-bet a river with a nut low and some semblance of a high hand, and I played with a player tonight who would three bet with a one way hand on a two way board, a hand that could be tied for high or potentially beaten. If you have QJ24 on a board that reads A-3-5-8-10, making you a wheel and a queen high flush, it's a standard river bet/three bet. The situations for such a play are countless, so if you combine that fact with my straight forward approach to betting, maybe you can see where my comment about getting to showdown has merit in my style of play, and the style that I reccomend.

In sum, I dont check raise the river because I've found that too often it will get checked through, and conversely many hands will pay off. Furthermore, if I have a hand that I want to bet on the river, I also have a hand that I can call one more bet with in the event of getting check raised. That last comment is a general one, because there are certain opponents who I can bet/fold to on the river, but the vast majority of the time I want to go to showdown, and will if I bet the river, especially in HU spots. In most instances, if you throw away a winner one time in ten, you've made a negative expectation play, and I know that at least one time in ten someone gets tricky with a naked ace or the like.