Posting Blinds before or after button

[Devilboy666]

Yea Poker Plan is correct. If you're saying posting from the CO (or any other spot other than the BB) is +EV then you should be limping into every pot. Clearly that's not correct. Online you should always wait for the blinds to come around. At the casino I'll sometimes post OOP just because I don't feel like waiting for 10 mins for the blinds to come around, but I know that it's definitely not +EV.

[Gonso]

In some casinos's 1/2 games, you can come in at any position without posting (except button or SB obv) when you first sit down.

[Devilboy666]

Yea unfortunately I'm in Sydney and we have the worst 1/2 rake EVAR at Star City casino here.

How bad is it? Check this out:
- Fixed buy-in of $80
- Ratholing is allowed, you can drop down to $80 whenever you feel like it
- Rake is 10% per hand up to $8
- Also there's a time charge of $5 per hour
- Drink service sucks - expect to wait 40 mins for that coffee
- Dealers must use a shoe to deal from (wtf)

Luckily the players are so bad that the insane rake is usually beatable. But still - I can't even begin to tell you how much I hate that place. Now with bots all over the 1/2 games at Full Tilt... what do I do?

[Gonso]

Learn Omaha or play more HU NL. FT is very beatable still btw.

[Devilboy666]

I'm playing a lot of 2-7 triple draw now. Actually quite a refreshing change!

[jack21221]

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RedJoker:

It's throwing a fraction of a small bet away for the opportunity to play several additional hands. You'll need to please explain to me how that's "throwing money away" in full ring.

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You can convince yourself. Open your PT database. Check out your 'profit' from the Big Blind position. There is a profit, isn't there??? No? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] That's right, no one makes any money from the BB. So if that's the case, it follows that you can't make a long term profit by posting a bet blind.

Also your theory that you're missing out on opportunities would mean that you should see every flop???

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Seeing a flop costs money. Being dealt 6 hands between the CO and the BB is free. That's where your straw man breaks down. Seeing every flop isn't +EV. Seeing free hands dealt to you where you don't have to post the blind is.

Yes, you will lose a fraction of a small bet on that first hand you post in the CO. Thereafter, you're in the game, accumulating PT stats, accumulating points, and getting into +EV situations in many occasions.

I wonder how many times you've missed getting dealt AA, KK, QQ, AK, or something similar by sitting out for 6 hands? Think it's often enough to miss out on a fraction of a small bet?

Again, if you're playing 6max, wait for the BB. If you're in full ring, especially full ring NL (but full ring limit as well), posting in the CO is fine.

What, you still want numbers? I'll take your advice and pull up PT. Here are my position stats for games between 9 and 10 players (which is where I advocate posting in the CO. Fewer players, wait for the BB). This is about 90% limit, 10% NL over a sample size of 16399.

BB (0.23)

2: 0.06
3: 0.03
4. 0.02
5: 0.04
6: 0.08
7: (0.01)

That means posting a big blind costs me 0.23, while the next 6 hands gain me 0.22. Sounds like a net loss of 0.01 BB, right? Well, not quite.

See, when you post in the cutoff, you have far better position than when you post in the BB. My CO number is the same as my button number, 0.16 BB per hand. I'm going to be generous to your argument and only discount this effect very slightly.

Lets say I only lose 0.20 big bets every time I post in the CO, rather than the 0.23 from the big blind. In reality, it's probably going to be closer to 0.10, but I'll give you the 0.20.

Even if I lose 0.20 BB every time I post in the cut off, I'll make 0.22 in the subsequent hands before the BB, I'll get some reads on my opponents, some pokertracker stats, and even some FPP points since I play on Stars.

Sounds like a net positive to me. Thanks for the idea of checking pokertracker, though.

(P.S. I was being generous in including the 9 handed games. If I only included the 10 handed games, the BB loses 0.20, and the other 6 hands give me 0.29)

[PantsOnFire]

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RedJoker:

It's throwing a fraction of a small bet away for the opportunity to play several additional hands. You'll need to please explain to me how that's "throwing money away" in full ring.

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You can convince yourself. Open your PT database. Check out your 'profit' from the Big Blind position. There is a profit, isn't there??? No? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] That's right, no one makes any money from the BB. So if that's the case, it follows that you can't make a long term profit by posting a bet blind.

Also your theory that you're missing out on opportunities would mean that you should see every flop???

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I have some comments on this concerning a full 10 person table.

First, you have to consider position. In BB, not only do you have to post, but you are also in the second worst position at the table postflop. CO is second best position. Just this fact alone would make posting in CO much better than BB.

Second, if the game is one which you know you will be beating, then it is very likely that your win rate will be higher if you get into the game in CO.

Third, if you know that preflop raises are rare, then you are better off getting into the game in CO.

If we agree that posting in the CO is -EV all by itself, then real math question is this: Can the expected loss by posting in CO be overcome by the expected wins in MP3 to UTG?

[Devilboy666]

Well that would simply depend on your win rate in those positions.

[Nairb]

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You shouldn't post a big blind from anywhere except the big blind, it's throwing money away and any time I see a player do this I'm extremely likely to raise him. He's playing a random hand and he'll often fold preflop.

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I only play 6 max so I have found raising strongly pushes an out of position bb poster out like 90%.

[itWASaDREAM]

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You shouldn't post a big blind from anywhere except the big blind, it's throwing money away and any time I see a player do this I'm extremely likely to raise him. He's playing a random hand and he'll often fold preflop.

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When I see someone post there blinds oop I instantly have an idea of the player. I assume usually that they are weak and don't understand the power of position (because they are voluntarily posting money to see a random hand not in position). I think this is a very -EV to post. Just wait the four or five hands and take your blinds.