Nut Flush v Running Flush

[McGrain]

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If you run into a straight flush when you have the nut flush, you're destined to get stacked. It happens. Just like when you run KK into AA preflop. You're probably going to get stacked.

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This is what I mean; I've had kings v aces twice and got away from it once (astonishigly man 3 called with AK).

Dan Harrington has said that he's not smart enough to fold KK preflop no matter what the action. That's good enough for me. I've said many times, if I ever fold KK preflop, take me out and shoot me. If the opponent has AA, that's life.

I agree that the call would always be the "right" play. Unless you got busted!

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No. Its the right play even if you get busted. The result of the hand is irrelevant to whether the play is right or wrong.

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Here is what happened to me on the KK fold.

To my immediate left is ArchCrim, a player I've run into several times. I recieve Kings under the gun, and I raise up four times (my standard is three or four) and I get a re-raise from ArchCrim.

ArchCrim only plays premium. He's no there for the fun. He plays the nuts and he folds most of his hands, i'd never seen him bluff and i'd NEVER seen him show down a winning hand.

The BB, who had taken several bad (and good) beats, went all in for a small raise.

I thought and I folded. It was so unlike ArchCrim to raise a raise, and it was mostly like him to fold. This, in addition to what was almost certain to be a horrible draw type of hand (AK as it happened!) led me to fold.

I'd had a good day and had plenty to protect. I can honestly say that it was not a difficult fold and I certainly didn't feel I needed shooting ArchCrim when he turned over AA.

In fact, it's my favourite poker moment.

I understand that a play can be "correct" even when it loses you money. My play here was better.

[mmbossman]

If the raiser is smart, the next 10 times you have Ks and raise, he'll reraise you w/ less than premium hands (that is, if you let him know you laid down KK). It may have be the profitable hand this time, but if you run into him again, and he's any good, he'll take advantage of that weakness. Usually a move like this will cost you, and even this may have ended up costing you in the long run.

[McGrain]

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If the raiser is smart, the next 10 times you have Ks and raise, he'll reraise you w/ less than premium hands (that is, if you let him know you laid down KK). It may have be the profitable hand this time, but if you run into him again, and he's any good, he'll take advantage of that weakness. Usually a move like this will cost you, and even this may have ended up costing you in the long run.

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But how would he know I have kings if I fold them?

And how will he know I have kings anyway if I always use one of two standard raises?

[Jeff_B]

Who was it that in like the ME a few years ago she put someone on like 8c 5c when she turned top boat and she goes crap you have the straight flush.?

[phydaux]

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no

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I'm not folding A-high flushes on an unpaired board. Ever.

[phydaux]

I also don't fold A-high flushes on paired boards, but I do slow my betting down.

[AngusThermopyle]

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no

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I'm not folding A-high flushes on an unpaired board. Ever.

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Hero: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Non-Braindead-Opponent: ? ?

Board: J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Never?

[McGrain]

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no

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I'm not folding A-high flushes on an unpaired board. Ever.

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Hero: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Non-Braindead-Opponent: ? ?

Board: J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Never?

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This is a much better example than mine.

You make a "gee I hope you caught something on that flop" coninuation bet which gets called after the flop.

Then the eight comes out and your half pot raise gets re-raised all in.

Is that an automatic call?

[Jeff76]

There are situations against the right players where you can lay down KK PF in a full ring game. They are rare, and you better really be on your game to make that laydown. You won't be far wrong if you call every time, but you can lose a lot of money making the bad laydowns.

Now laying down a nut flush on a non-paired board is bad. If you even consider this, then drop down to a lower level where the money isn't meaningful to you because your fears are causing you to lose value on your big hands.

Yes you will get coolered- if you cannot handle it when it happens, this is not the game for you. You have to risk money, and this means more than paying to try and catch a draw. It means realizing that your opponent is rarely ever playing specific enough to have only one hand, so you have to determine your chances against all the possible hands your opponent can have. This means you will loose sometimes when he has the top of his range, but if you know you are ahead often enough to call, then you must call. Poker is gambling, and this is part of the wagering. You can't put an opponent on a straight flush short of him flipping over the cards and showing it to you.

[Jeff76]

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no

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I'm not folding A-high flushes on an unpaired board. Ever.

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Hero: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Non-Braindead-Opponent: ? ?

Board: J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Never?

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This is a much better example than mine.

You make a "gee I hope you caught something on that flop" coninuation bet which gets called after the flop.

Then the eight comes out and your half pot raise gets re-raised all in.

Is that an automatic call?

[/ QUOTE ]It doesn't even matter. If you want to deliberately try to fabricate examples that are the exception to the rule then you aren't getting anywhere here.

You could call here every time it happens to you, and even if you always lose the net effect in your overall poker career would be less than a blip on the radar. If you really try to figure out when your NFD is beat and make that laydown, the times you do it incorrectly will cost you far more than the one time you called and were bad.