What aspects of fate, if any, do you believe in? - Page 2

Philo · #11 07-02-2007, 02:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"
That's just really silly, and hardly conducive to a constructive argument to use the word 'idiotic' like that. "

When people say "red is green" you don't reason with them you call them idiots, because that's what they are. If God knows the future it is obviously predetermined, if you can't understand that I have difficulty imagining you can remember to breathe.

[/ QUOTE ]

You sound like you could use a little philosophy:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fr...foreknowledge/

Note in particular the five compatibilist responses to the argument for theological fatalism, all proposed by idiots of course.

Duke · #12 07-02-2007, 02:43 PM

I currently accept the conservation of momentum, since there haven't been a whole lot of examples of it not holding.

I suppose that's a sort of fate.

Duke · #13 07-02-2007, 02:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
what is a coherent example of some everyday action/event that hypothetically occurs without a reason?

[/ QUOTE ]

Every single argument a woman ever started with her significant other.

m_the0ry · #14 07-02-2007, 02:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Free will and determinism are compatible

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree his use of the word 'idiotic' is not constructive at all but this statement is a logical fallacy. Free will and determinism cannot exist, period. They are incompatible by the most strict definition of the word; each is the antithesis of the other.

__seth · #15 07-02-2007, 07:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what is a coherent example of some everyday action/event that hypothetically occurs without a reason?

[/ QUOTE ]

Every single argument a woman ever started with her significant other.

[/ QUOTE ]

haha touche

GoodCallYouWin · #16 07-02-2007, 08:33 PM

"Note in particular the five compatibilist responses to the argument for theological fatalism, all proposed by idiots of course. "

Did you read them? Half where written prior to 1300 (yes, by idiots)... and they all make no sense.

GoodCallYouWin · #17 07-02-2007, 08:34 PM

"Free will and determinism cannot exist, period."

I think if you examine the question of free will for even a few minutes longer you will see that free will cannot exist, period.

wazz · #18 07-02-2007, 08:38 PM

***Sigh***

Guys, go learn philosophy before you start arguing things you don't understand. I'm afraid I don't have the patience to teach you, I'm done with you for now.

bunny · #19 07-02-2007, 08:39 PM

I dont believe in fate and there are plenty of non-idiots who think an omniscient God can exist and that we can have free will.

I would guess that the reason you think the two are contradictive is that you imagine God existing at some point and thinking "I know what Gobias Ind. is about to do" you then make what you think is a free choice but sure enough do exactly what God thought you were going to do a moment ago.

The best solution to this paradox has always seemed to me to be to point out that God is not claimed to exist at any point in time. In other words, there is no past, present and future for him and he isnt experiencing the world in a temporally linear way the way we do. Our language is unable to refer to God without implying he exists at a particular point in time, nonetheless that implication is not usually intended by a theist.

One (inaccurate) way I find useful to think of it is to imagine God experiencing all of creation in his past. We dont see any problem with knowing the result of a choice in the past contradicting free will and I would ask a "free will contradicts omniscient God" type to explain to me how God knowing my choice means I am not making a free choice, without making the assumption that he knows it ahead of time.

GoodCallYouWin · #20 07-02-2007, 08:45 PM

bunny :

All you do is confuse the issue. Either God knows the future or he doesn't. If he knows the future, you have to do what he knows you will do, or he's wrong, which is impossible for an omniscient being.

The real problem here is people start with two definitions and assume they must be true no matter what (God as omniscient, free will as true). Since both of these are impossible (much in the way if you have an 'unstoppable cannon ball' there can be no 'unmovable wall') there is a problem... but Christians keep on talking, despite the fact that it cannot possibly be; because their ideology blinds them to logic.