KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...

[IShearSheep]

Pretty sick spot. I think since you decided to come back over the top for 10k more preflop I would have leaned more toward shoving although jamming that AI will KK ehhh. I mean once you raise it 10k more are really going to fold if you get shoved on based on how you described villains? Plus you are out of pos. Even after the flop are you going to fold no matter what flops? Based on how the action went and how you described how he wanted to raise preflop I think he has precisely jj qq or ak with a very slim chance of kk obviously. I don't think it is very likely the way the hand played pre that he has aa either maybe 10%. I think he would call your 10k pop pre in pos given the two ak hands that you just discussed and he is in pos.
I don't like a blind shove here either because if an ace flops and he has acex or aa you will get called and if he has qq or jj I don't know given your prior two ak hands. If an ace flops and you check to him and he has qq or jj he may shove it in because he has to put you on qq kk ak and he may think he can push you out if you have kk qq. Anyway, I hope this flop came out with 3 rags for your sake.

[PokerForMath]

A button shove after your repop is fishy and requires an insta call. After MP repops you have to go less on the physical read and more on the betting pattern. His cold call of MPs repop suggests that no way he has AA. Too much chance of seeing the pot 3-way.

I think you needed to raise more pre-flop or shove. His range at this point is most likely AK, QQ, JJ, AA in that order. If you shove the flop he is not putting another dime in the unless he flops bingo. So then you have to try to play deceptively and hope he makes a mistake. Worse, any A, Q or J on the flop is scary. Your repop gives him close to 2:1 to call, so in a misguided rationalization he probably talked himself into calling with, I would have to guess, most like AK.

[hotmark777]

Interesting hand.

OP would you consider folding if button shoves pre after the four bet?

The way this hand is played i think checking the flop no matter what hits is the best option to either give him a chance to bet a lesser hand, or help you with your read (incase you feel u r beat) when he acts.

[MYNAMEIZGREG]

Yea idk about you guys, but if David can sit there like a statue no matter what the flop comes he should check it (not dark either).

[dlpnyc21]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting hand.

OP would you consider folding if button shoves pre after the four bet?

The way this hand is played i think checking the flop no matter what hits is the best option to either give him a chance to bet a lesser hand, or help you with your read (incase you feel u r beat) when he acts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this 100% and this is what i wound up doing...i won't say what the flop was yet, but i thought for about 5 minutes PREFLOP before I decided to repop to 10k more because i wanted to forumlate a plan on all possible actions and flops.

If btn had shoved I would have very strongly considered folding but would have done some talking to him and gotten a physical read. Most likely I would not have folded though based on the pot odds i laid myself if he shoved.

However, what is a reasonable calling range for the BTN of my 4-bet given what odds I laid my opponent???

This question is very important, IMO.

Thanks, this was a very very sick spot, and post-flop was even more interesting because of how it developed.

dlpnyc21

[Jason Strasser (strassa2)]

crappy spot if you dont do a lot of really crazy stuff preflop. its that weird balance between weighing on one side picking up 8k ish in the pot and not allowing some weird hand to bust you and also not laying implied odds while on the other hand allowing your opponents to play close to perfect (they will usually fold QQ and AK to this crazy preflop action, right?). I ususally lean towards just calling the 4.1k preflop unless I have been really wild in which case I will pop it up just like you did. with a tight image I really dont love the preflop play, but like i said its not like there are really great lines out there for you to use.

[Jason Strasser (strassa2)]

dave, i dont like this question because it seems pretty obvious to me that because you are likely not doing lots of crazy [censored] at the table, there is not one hand that makes a lot of sense for the button to have. If he has AA i think he'd put it in knowing the pot odds you are getting, and everything else he'd probably fold. this goes back to my point where your preflop line is probably not that good unless you got a maniac image or are against someone that wont fold QQ JJ here.

[hotmark777]

Dave although i dont think i am very qualified to give hand ranges, because i have never played such high stakes games live (ie very deep), In my opinion i think aa can be ruled out in his hand ranges. I have seen many weird aa plays pre, but i do believe that after the initial raiser popped it to 4000, most players would want to thin out the field by repopping at this point.

Having said this another important factor is how long you have taken to reraise to 14k. He could have interpreted this as a sign of weakness (obv depending on how you have acted during other decisions). But in my opinion given all these factors, I think the most likely hands are ak and qq and he just wants to ensure a non-ugly flop before committing all his chips.

But yet again how many times do players in these games (or this player in particular) commit 300 bb's out of 500bb's pre without the nuts?

[Ship Ship McGipp]

this is just sick, i might even just straight shove pre, could talk one of them into aclling with QQ or something, not sure if live overbets look stronger or weaker, guess it's opponent dependant, but someone might talk themselves into thinking you have AK or something

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
However, what is a reasonable calling range for the BTN of my 4-bet given what odds I laid my opponent???

This question is very important, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems to me that anyone who hasn't played with BTN can't possibly answer your question because his play makes zero sense. Coldcalling a third time for 10K more? LOL. Come on.

When your pf raise would leave you with about 1/2 of a psb, doesn't it make sense to just push? Can you seriously get away from your hand?