Hidden outs

[bozlax]

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It is a pretty worthless concept TBTH

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Holy oxymoron, Batman! How can a concept be without worth? For that matter, how can anything be partially worthless?

You can't even say that it has no practical application. What you CAN say is that this is one of many concepts put forth in SSHE that is a) not applicable in a game where you're not able to reliably read hands, and b) has a high risk of being improperly applied by new players (OP, this means you), so those new players should probably not worry too much about it.

[Zeldark]

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I started going trhough replies and gave up. They just confirmed what I already knew - if you neve ever heard about hidden outs in your life, your game wouldn't suffer much.
They MAY be useful if for some reason you can put opponent on an exact hand (god luck with that). This stuff has purely theoretic interest.

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You are being too absolute. Knowledge of them helps indeed. You don't need to know their exact hand. if the board is 789 and you don't know which 2 they have, but you may call down in a close situation because you know if the board pairs you may have the best hand. In other situations it's more useful. There are board where you can have a good idea which 2 pair he has. When the board pairs favorably you can extract more before he realizes his "top" 2 pair is no longer good.

If you have 100 people in a choir and one is out of tune, your choir isn't as good as all 100 people being in tune. Just because hidden outs is that one out of tune person doesn't mean that it won't ever sound bad. Don't make me think up more analogies, I'll do it.

[RemyXO]

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It is a pretty worthless concept TBTH

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Holy oxymoron, Batman! How can a concept be without worth? For that matter, how can anything be partially worthless?

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Ah! I should have read the whole thread - I'm on Batman's side.
Bozlax, how and in which situations have you successfully applied HO concept lately? Post hands. And not concocted ones [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[bozlax]

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Bozlax, how and in which situations have you successfully applied HO concept lately? Post hands. And not concocted ones [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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You wanna dance, pretty boy? Fine.

You can't "apply" the concept of hidden outs. The discussion of hidden outs in SSHE is referring to times when you have outs that you might not see. If you are applying it, then you see the possible outs, ergo they're not hidden. So, in fact, all the "concept" amounts to is, "make sure you count all your outs you [censored] sophomore."

[RemyXO]

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Bozlax, how and in which situations have you successfully applied HO concept lately? Post hands. And not concocted ones [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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You wanna dance, pretty boy? Fine.

You can't "apply" the concept of hidden outs. The discussion of hidden outs in SSHE is referring to times when you have outs that you might not see. If you are applying it, then you see the possible outs, ergo they're not hidden. So, in fact, all the "concept" amounts to is, "make sure you count all your outs you [censored] sophomore."

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Aha ... so you flame me on lunguistical imprecision of my post, call me [censored] sophomore, but do nothing to prove your point!

Sure, "count (and discount!) all your outs" is fine with me. The "hidden outs" concept, however, is about a specific kind of outs ... ones that basically counterfeit your opponent's holdings. Which you can't know unless you know your opponent's holdings precisely.

BTW, I might be an ugly girl instead of a pretty boy, u still wanna dance? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[bozlax]

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Aha ... so you flame me on lunguistical imprecision of my post, call me [censored] sophomore,

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Uh, I did neither of these things.

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but do nothing to prove your point!

Sure, "count (and discount!) all your outs" is fine with me. The "hidden outs" concept, however, is about a specific kind of outs ... ones that basically counterfeit your opponent's holdings. Which you can't know unless you know your opponent's holdings precisely.

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Remind me again, what's my point that I'm not proving? Oh, yeah, "hidden outs" is not a worthless concept.

Remy, you can't know which outs counterfiet your opponents hand, and that's why you don't give yourself 3 two-pair outs when you're holding an overpair and you think your opponent has flopped two-pair. The point is that SOME cards counterfiet your opponent's BEST holdings, and you're still ahead of his WORSE holdings, so you don't automatically fold when he donkbets, c/r's, or otherwise shows aggression.

How's about you show me an overpair hand where you DON'T apply that concept.

[marchron]

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Bozlax, how and in which situations have you successfully applied HO concept lately? Post hands. And not concocted ones [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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I'm not bozlax, and it's not really "recent," but the hidden-outs concept helped me in this hand.

[RemyXO]

Marchron,

That's the problem I have with that hand in particular, and with Hidden Outs in general. You are saying - you put your opponent EXACTLY on a two pair, and EXACTLY on the bottom two pair. That allowed you to figure his hand is counterfeited and C/R the river. How often can you be so sure? He may very well have a set and improve to boat or quads. The hidden outs that you give yourself usually have to be discounted just because they give you 2 pair and the villain the nuts.

You wouldn't be posting that hand if villain turned up 88, 55, 33, 85, 83. And you'd feel like a donkey for that river C/R.

With the overpair facing aggression, where you think you are beat, the decision is usually to fold or call down. You don't know what exactly you are beat with. You don't go for river C/R when it pairs a flop card. Sklansky's usual "if you have a reason to believe that your opponent is holding Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ..." doesn't apply in 99.99% of the cases.

All I am saying is there are PLENTY of more important topics to learn and leaks to plug, and being totally oblivious to the concept of hidden outs won't have a material impact on your LHE results. Just my opinion.

Bozlax,
You disappoint me - I thought I moved from [censored] n00b to [censored] sophomore category, and it doesn't appear to be the case [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Peace [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[bozlax]

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You disappoint me - I thought I moved from [censored] n00b to [censored] sophomore category, and it doesn't appear to be the case

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You're nowhere near as disappointed as I.

[knockonwood]

I miss the microdramas. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]