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#11
06-15-2007, 12:54 AM
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Re: Results
[ QUOTE ]
He thought for a bit and folded 66. As for the pf coldcall rather than 3 bet, two things. [/ QUOTE ] He folded a set? ;-) [ QUOTE ] Second is specific to the villain. I feel that his range gives me room to take the hand away later with a coldcall. Only good players fold, so his liberal raising with any pp sets him up for pressurized turn raises. Not so easy for 33-77 on a lot of boards. [/ QUOTE ] Okay, but a lot of those boards either (1) have improved your hand anyway, or (2) would be just as scary to him if you'd 3-bet preflop and continuation bet the flop/turn. [ QUOTE ] He's thinking what's my range that coldcalls pf but now raises the turn? [/ QUOTE ] If he's good, then he's thinking: What's your range that coldcalls preflop, just calls the flop, and now raises the turn. And the answer to that question is different, because this is a superb spot on the flop for any pair to raise. I like your play better the fewer players took a flop, because it becomes more correct to slowplay, and I like it better against a mediocre opponent than a good one. 
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#12
06-15-2007, 01:19 AM
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Re: Results
[ QUOTE ]
would be just as scary to him if you'd 3-bet preflop and continuation bet the flop/turn. [/ QUOTE ] That's the thing Nate. I find that taking the lead pf with 3 bets often leads pp's to call down T high boards. They have an AK bulls eye on you and take pride in the call down. Where as the line of pf coldcall / flop call / turn raise rarely has them thinking just overs. BTW - tx for recognizing he obviously didn't fold a set. The typo police are quick to pounce.
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#13
06-15-2007, 01:35 AM
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Re: Results
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] would be just as scary to him if you'd 3-bet preflop and continuation bet the flop/turn. [/ QUOTE ] That's the thing Nate. I find that taking the lead pf with 3 bets often leads pp's to call down T high boards. They have an AK bulls eye on you and take pride in the call down. [/ QUOTE ] If he's weak-tight, then I understand where your going with this, but I still don't think it outweighs the advantages of getting the blinds and perhaps the UTG player out of the hand. I mean, if you take a flop 4-handed, what are you doing when he bets into you on a board of K64 rainbow?
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#14
06-15-2007, 01:44 AM
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Re: Results
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] would be just as scary to him if you'd 3-bet preflop and continuation bet the flop/turn. [/ QUOTE ] That's the thing Nate. I find that taking the lead pf with 3 bets often leads pp's to call down T high boards. They have an AK bulls eye on you and take pride in the call down. Where as the line of pf coldcall / flop call / turn raise rarely has them thinking just overs. BTW - tx for recognizing he obviously didn't fold a set. The typo police are quick to pounce. [/ QUOTE ] While he's more likely to call you down if you 3bet, you also have to contend with less people in the pot, so I think it balances out a fair amount. So yeah, you lose a chance or two to blow him off of a hand when the board comes exactly as it did here, but you also lose a bit of a value and have to hope that the other callers, SB, BB, etc., don't flop enough of a hand to continue, which they often will when you're giving them decent odds. I don't think it's a bad play, but it's not the best as a default, I don't think. Ok as a mix-it-up sort of thing once in a while though. Rob
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#16
06-15-2007, 03:17 AM
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Re: Results
Board is T748 and he has 66...so he folded a PP with a double-gutshot? I'm sure you have the board wrong or his hand wrong. Let's assume the board is right and he lied about his hand. There are no pocket pairs that will raise an EP limper and fold the turn here. If he is mediocre I think you get AK/Q to fold sometimes, but it needs to be discounted a bit for the times he fears your turn raise and decides to c/c down with it. So I'm thinking that the fsdr is worse than a calldown since you will occasionally get 3-bet by an overpair and sometimes you miss out on a free showdown by a PP if the river is scary.
Now if the board was something like T83 and the turn a 2, you have *some* FE against PPs but I think only poor hand readers will be folding them. My experience is if you just call the flop 4-ways and it all of a sudden gets headsup on the turn, and NOW you're raising, then unless the turn card completed credible draws, your hand looks a lot like a semi-bluff. In other words, if I'm in villain's spot I'm 3-betting all of my good draws and dumping only A-crap type hands.
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#17
06-15-2007, 05:32 AM
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Re: Results
[ QUOTE ]
He thought for a bit and folded 66. I just realized I put a 6 on the flop in OP. Flop must have been T74. I know he told guy next to him he had 66 and guy said I must've had AT. [/ QUOTE ] It's funny, because my first thought when I read the hand was that the only thing you could be representing is ATs. But, as Nate points out, AT really should be raising the flop, so it's a hard sell if he can put much thought into it.
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#19
06-15-2007, 04:29 PM
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Re: Andy started it
[ QUOTE ]
What's the deal with the preflop cold-call? [/ QUOTE ] I don't like, generally. Cold calling with AQ is for when two others (besides the raiser)have already entered the pot(Sklansky). AQ off doesn't play well against an early position raise, even in loose games (also Sklansky). In late position it is a three bet if nobody has called, where driving out the blinds and having dead money in the pot, heads up, is probably a profitable situation even if your hand is not best on average. The limper prior to the raiser is what makes this one tricky. 3 betting when you probably can't isolate is generally not good with AQ. If he is fairly certain that both the first limper, as well as at least one of the blinds will call then the cold call may not be a bad play. Another exception here, one that you may have in mind, is where the first limper is a weak player and the raiser could be trying to isolate him with a hand that may not be very strong. In that case, 3 betting would be the best play.
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