How to build chips in the middle levels of the $4 and $10 180's

[Sherman]

People who are concerned about getting called a lot aren't really thinking this through.

So the argument is this: But no one every folds in a micro donkament.

Exactly. OP here has raised with A9s. He is going to get called with all sorts of trash including QTo, etc. Against opponent calling ranges, A9s is a favorite! He is only really worried about someone limping a bigger ace, which is unlikely. The fact is, we don't actually need a ton of FE to make this a +EV play.

Now, if you are doing this with garbage (and yes I do sometimes) you also want to make sure your garbage plays well against calling ranges. So I wouldn't do it with A2. I might get called by A6 and at best I get called by two unpaired middle cards. Notice how with A9s, the worst case scenario (being dominated) is less likely, the 'not so bad case' scenario (vs. QTo etc) is more likely, and the best case scenario (vs. Ax) is also more likely.

So in summation, if you are going to do this, do it with hands that if/when they get called are going to have the most equity against calling ranges.

[MJBuddy]

I make this same move with monster hands...it's how I build my stack in large field MTT.

10% rule works wonders with TT+, AQs, AK. You get chip donations all the time.

[mxp2004]

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People who are concerned about getting called a lot aren't really thinking this through.

So the argument is this: But no one every folds in a micro donkament.

Exactly. OP here has raised with A9s. He is going to get called with all sorts of trash including QTo, etc. Against opponent calling ranges, A9s is a favorite! He is only really worried about someone limping a bigger ace, which is unlikely. The fact is, we don't actually need a ton of FE to make this a +EV play.

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I'm not sure that you've got my point exactly, although I don't disagree with the point that you are making. I understand the reasoning that can make this play +EV, and perhaps that ends the discussion.

The point I'm raising is more subtle: how big does the +EV have to be before jeopardizing a decent stack?

Maybe that question is too theoretical to answer, but that is the issue that I see in the strategy. The smaller my tournament M, the more inclined I might be to push small edges that jeopardize my tournament. The healthier my M, the more by way of +EV I want to see before putting my whole stack at risk.

So that's my question here: is this a big +EV move or a small one?

[APipeDream]

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Do you have any actual stats about how often this move goes uncalled? I would be really interested in seeing what you've found if tracked your success rate with Pokertracker or some other hand history software.

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Good thought. I have about 500 of these 180s in Poker Tracker. Maybe a bit of research is in need.

[Sherman]

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People who are concerned about getting called a lot aren't really thinking this through.

So the argument is this: But no one every folds in a micro donkament.

Exactly. OP here has raised with A9s. He is going to get called with all sorts of trash including QTo, etc. Against opponent calling ranges, A9s is a favorite! He is only really worried about someone limping a bigger ace, which is unlikely. The fact is, we don't actually need a ton of FE to make this a +EV play.

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is this a big +EV move or a small one?

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I understand the reasoning that can make this play +EV, and perhaps that ends the discussion.

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It almost always does IMO.

[dafrk3in]

i like the play. however, it might be better to bump it to 1200 and shove any flop.

[infinite_loop]

Yeah, this looks like a pretty standard play. I haven't tried it with garbage but I can see how doubling your stack with it shown would be awesome for your image considering the fact that in these fields they're rarely tight enough to make too many moves effective anyway.

[woohoo88]

Nice hand.


A couple thoughts on doing this with a much weaker hand: You should be very aware of your opponents stacks (especially the last one to act). Middle stacks are the best to do this against as a big stack will be more willing to "call your bluff" while short stacks are feeling the pressure to double up instead of preserving their stack.

Good reads on their limp/calling tendiences are also a key to making this a profitable move w/ ATC. Players that tend to overvalue their hands will limp/call with a wide range. If I see a player habitually limp/fold or limp/call with a wide range I definitly make a note on them.