Not sure about this? Thoughts?

[uclaben]

[ QUOTE ]
"One player to a hand."

It's possible (probably not in this case) that the person betting big thought he was on a bluff and was going to insta-muck to a call. When the OP theorized about his hand, he may have then realize, oh, wait, he does have a winning hand.

Granted, not likely in this case, but you need to draw the line somewhere, and the easy line is after the pot has been pushed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. I imagine that in theory this is correct...I just think the OPTOAH concept is stretched a bit far on this board (B&M) in particular. The OP notwithstanding, if two guys are all in, I really don't think it's necessary to limit any speculation about the hand. That kills the fun, and for what?

[Mattyspin]

you should never "coffee house" at the table. it is frowned upon and in some clubs/casinos, it's against the rules and you can be asked to leave as a result. just don't do it in the future.

as far as what the final decision was, i'd say it was wrong to allow a player to have his chips back in this scenario, however if everyone agreed (it's still the wrong decision), let it be.

[pfapfap]

[ QUOTE ]
I just think the OPTOAH concept is stretched a bit far on this board (B&M) in particular.

[/ QUOTE ]

B&M is where it's most important.

[ QUOTE ]
The OP notwithstanding, if two guys are all in, I really don't think it's necessary to limit any speculation about the hand. That kills the fun, and for what?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've many times seen a player all-in who backdoored into something else, and not realized it until someone said "any heart will win" or something similar. Unless in a tournament, hands are not tabled until the players choose to table them. You can make the argument that all hands should be tabled at showdown and the best hand always win, but that's not how the rules are. You're going to get the crap kicked out of you someday if you continue with this attitude and cost somebody a big pot.

Edited to add: Regardless, just speculate to yourself. You're not paying for the hand, so you have no right to the "fun". There's enough fuzziness as it is, and when you start saying "yabbut in this situation..." you open the door to a whole lot else. Theorize in your head. Don't say a damn thing until the pot is pushed.

And you may not be aware, but nobody really likes the person at the end of the table openly talking about what he thinks everybody has. If you choose to be a douche, do so in a way that doesn't violate the rules.

[uclaben]

[ QUOTE ]
I've many times seen a player all-in who backdoored into something else, and not realized it until someone said "any heart will win" or something similar. Unless in a tournament, hands are not tabled until the players choose to table them. You can make the argument that all hands should be tabled at showdown and the best hand always win, but that's not how the rules are. You're going to get the crap kicked out of you someday if you continue with this attitude and cost somebody a big pot.

Edited to add: Regardless, just speculate to yourself. You're not paying for the hand, so you have no right to the "fun".

If you choose to be a douche, do so in a way that doesn't violate the rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're taking this - and yourself - way too seriously.

Look, you're right. It's clearly not right to say "any heart will win." I just don't think this is that big of a deal - it changes the course of a hand so infrequently that I don't think it's worth tapping the glass over. JMO.

[eastcoaster]

uclaben, they were NOT both all-in. Player A was and Player B was contemplating a call (practically calling) when OP opened his yapper. Player A then tabled his hand (J,9) and Player B saw it and decided to fold.

I have been in games where people talk about what they had and what others may have while the hand is in progress. I ask them to stop and if they do not I leave. It is extremely poor etiquette, though not necessarily a rules infraction (some places it is, others it isn't).

I remember a 7stud game I played and the lady sitting next to me was telling other people involved in the hand what she thought I had whenever I bet. If there were three suited on board she'd say, "Looks like a flush," three to a straight, "he made a straight". One time I paired my door card on 4th and she said, "Looks like a full house." It was then that I made it an issue. I asked her why she felt the need to do this and she said it was out of habit, that in her "girls game" she plays at home with her friends, they always do this and it just carries over to when she plays B&M. She also went on to say that she is very adept at reading people's hand at 7-stud. I made a remark about how good I thought she was at it, as she thought I have a full house with only four cards! Of course the next card filled me out...

Regardless of whether I think Player B should pay or not, the OP needs to learn to shut up when not involved in a hand. That is the real issue here, IMO.

[crackerjack]

hey, no arguments on all the comments on me not saying anything. I agree.. but I would never of said anything if I thought the hand was still in progress. Same with player 'A'... he would NOT have tabled his hand if he had not thought the play was ended. We BOTH thought play was over.
If I was player 'B' I still would have kept my chips in the middle because I was calling.

As far as the betting line, yes we have poker tables and there is a very visible betting line and we do tell everyone that at this particular facility, this line is there for a reason.
Player 'B' is likeable and a donator, so we felt it was in the best interest of the game if we let him keep his chips... otherwise, he may not have kept coming back.

once again, I never ever talk during a hand. I, as well as eveyrone else at the table, thought he had made the call and the hand was over.
Half of his stack was felted way way over the betting line.

[uclaben]

[ QUOTE ]
uclaben, they were NOT both all-in. Player A was and Player B was contemplating a call (practically calling) when OP opened his yapper.

[/ QUOTE ]

OP thought (justifiably, IMO) he was all in - that's what matters here. I do not approve of discussion during a hand with further action.

[pfapfap]

[ QUOTE ]
You're taking this - and yourself - way too seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps. I realize now my post was a bit harsher than I intended. I don't think you're a douche, just saying if you choose to be, do it another way. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
Look, you're right. It's clearly not right to say "any heart will win." I just don't think this is that big of a deal - it changes the course of a hand so infrequently that I don't think it's worth tapping the glass over. JMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Usually I can cross the street without looking both ways and be just fine. But that one time it isn't fine, it's a huge deal. And I may agree with the idea that once the chips are in the pot, the best hand wins regardless of if the person recognizes a winner. Certainly that's how it is online. But that's not how it is.

There's so much murkiness in B&M. This is an incredibly clean-cut situation, and one that if violated at the wrong time can really piss someone off to the point of putting yourself at risk of physical harm. Why not train yourself not to say anything at all? Why do you feel the need to say anything in the first place? What's your motivation? Respect the game and the players involved, that seems the simplest solution.

I don't understand how not talking about a hand before the pot has been shipped is "tapping the glass"?

[NickMPK]

[ QUOTE ]
As far as the betting line, yes we have poker tables and there is a very visible betting line and we do tell everyone that at this particular facility, this line is there for a reason.


[/ QUOTE ]

In that case, if Player B released chips over the betting line, that is certainly a call.

[pfapfap]

[ QUOTE ]
In that case, if Player B released chips over the betting line, that is certainly a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why I make a big deal about it. Once you start saying "yeah, but I only said something a few seconds before it technically was okay" then you open the door to more and more. People have enough problems protecting their own hand, they don't need others making it harder. These sort of nitty "but it's a call!" kind of arguments are avoided completely if people just STFU until the chips are in the pot.

But it doesn't matter. We'll all be on eTables eventually, partially because of this sort of thing.