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#11
06-06-2007, 05:22 PM
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Re: 21/17/3.0/22
By unexploitable, do we mean unbeatable long term? My initial reaction is that, if you play a very specific way, no matter what that method is, someone who is good at adjusting to your game, can exploit you. Part of being "unexploitable" is to be able to adjust your game when necessary, no?
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#13
06-06-2007, 05:26 PM
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Re: 21/17/3.0/22
[ QUOTE ]
dont really get it...just because PF numbers are nice doesnt mean that they arent horrible postflop. there was a thread in hsnl a bit back on 'unexploitable strategy' and the consensus was there was none (i think). [/ QUOTE ] Obviously, playing 22/17/3.0 or whatever unexploitable strategy stats might be doesn't make you unexploitable. It's just that there is a theoretical optimal unexploitable strategy and that knowing what the stats for that strategy is will allow you to judge how to take advantage of people who deviate too much from it. Let's say you think someone is raising too many hands prelfop. Why do you think that? The reason is that he raises to many hands in comparison with unexploitable play. So you gonna make an adjustment to exploit that. For example, you'll start 3-betting more. But by doing this you open yourself for exploitation yourself, but the question is will your opponent realise this, and start attacking your weakness (3-betting too much) and protecting his by adjusting his opening range / 4-betting more. This is most obvious in heads-up play but it's still there and it's very important to understand it at 6-max.
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#14
06-06-2007, 05:29 PM
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Re: 21/17/3.0/22
[ QUOTE ]
By unexploitable, do we mean unbeatable long term? My initial reaction is that, if you play a very specific way, no matter what that method is, someone who is good at adjusting to your game, can exploit you. Part of being "unexploitable" is to be able to adjust your game when necessary, no? [/ QUOTE ] Yes, being unexploitable means unbeatable in the long run. But with a single strategy balanced strategy. Like for example, in roshambo, unexploitable play is to select your throw randomly.
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#15
06-06-2007, 05:32 PM
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Re: 21/17/3.0/22
[ QUOTE ]
A strategy can be "unexploitable" but in poker it is better to exploit others weaknesses, not focus your energy being unexploitable yourself. Exploiting opponents is where the money comes from. Like Sklansky says in NLHTAP, in math land there probably is a perfect strategy, but the people who would use it wouldn't be the biggest winners. [/ QUOTE ] Without having an idea of what unexploitable strategy is you cannot decide how to exploit your opponents. let's say you see a table full of 24/17/3.0 and you see another one full of 23/17/3.0. Which one are you gonna sit at? That will depend on your opinion of what unexploitable strategy is... and it's only an opinion because it would be almost impossible to prove.
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#16
06-06-2007, 05:34 PM
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Re: 21/17/3.0/22
[ QUOTE ]
1. Yes, it is the Game Theoretic Optimal Strategy. It is currently unknown for poker. 2. It is the optimal strategy vs. other people who are playing optimally. It is not optimal vs. players who make mistakes. 3. The best you can possibly do vs. the GTOS is to also play the GTOS, by definition. 4. GTOS is a lot more than preflop. Anyone who is playing differently than the GTOS in any way has a "leak" which you can adjust to exploit. It is interesting to think about because the GTOS is a very randomized balanced strategy. Basically any time someone is not randomizing or balanced enough they have a leak which you can exploit if you can adjust in the right way. [/ QUOTE ] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] I couln't have explained it better. ty.
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#17
06-06-2007, 05:39 PM
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Re: 21/17/3.0/22
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] By unexploitable, do we mean unbeatable long term? My initial reaction is that, if you play a very specific way, no matter what that method is, someone who is good at adjusting to your game, can exploit you. Part of being "unexploitable" is to be able to adjust your game when necessary, no? [/ QUOTE ] Yes, being unexploitable means unbeatable in the long run. But with a single strategy balanced strategy. Like for example, in roshambo, unexploitable play is to select your throw randomly. [/ QUOTE ] This unexploitable strategy would be different for different conditions, though, right? Like one versus a 6 max table vs a 9 max table vs heads up vs the types of players at each table, etc.
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#18
06-06-2007, 05:43 PM
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Re: 21/17/3.0/22
Yes, unexploitale strategy has #of players as a factor. If there is such a thing as a unified Game Theoretic Optimal Strategy for poker. Otherwise it may be a different strategy depending on the number of players.
Regardless, it's pretty clear that 20/17/3.0 will be exploitable headsup.
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#19
06-06-2007, 05:44 PM
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Re: 21/17/3.0/22
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] By unexploitable, do we mean unbeatable long term? My initial reaction is that, if you play a very specific way, no matter what that method is, someone who is good at adjusting to your game, can exploit you. Part of being "unexploitable" is to be able to adjust your game when necessary, no? [/ QUOTE ] Yes, being unexploitable means unbeatable in the long run. But with a single strategy balanced strategy. Like for example, in roshambo, unexploitable play is to select your throw randomly. [/ QUOTE ] This unexploitable strategy would be different for different conditions, though, right? Like one versus a 6 max table vs a 9 max table vs heads up vs the types of players at each table, etc. [/ QUOTE ] I think everyone here is talking about 6max. What does GTOS mean?
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#20
06-06-2007, 05:45 PM
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Re: 21/17/3.0/22
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] By unexploitable, do we mean unbeatable long term? My initial reaction is that, if you play a very specific way, no matter what that method is, someone who is good at adjusting to your game, can exploit you. Part of being "unexploitable" is to be able to adjust your game when necessary, no? [/ QUOTE ] Yes, being unexploitable means unbeatable in the long run. But with a single strategy balanced strategy. Like for example, in roshambo, unexploitable play is to select your throw randomly. [/ QUOTE ] This unexploitable strategy would be different for different conditions, though, right? Like one versus a 6 max table vs a 9 max table vs heads up vs the types of players at each table, etc. [/ QUOTE ] What does GTOS mean? [/ QUOTE ] Game Theoretic Optimal Strategy. ie. unexploitable strategy.
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