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  #11  
Old 06-04-2007, 12:38 PM
sputum sputum is offline
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Default Re: Pot Odds is only applicable to each bet in isolation, right?

Meh not a lot of time - I'll try harder later.
For now:
[ QUOTE ]
So really I need to be sure that I'll get at least 10.5:1 after my Turn call WHEN deciding to make my Flop call?

[/ QUOTE ]
Not if the flop call is profitable on it's own (ie for the chance of the next card being yours). If the flop call is not profitable on it's own and you'll be facing another bet (usually a larger one, not forgetting) it's unlikely a turn call will be profitable enough to make up for an unprofitable flop call if that's what you're after. If you guarantee the turn gets checked you can take the two-card odds on the flop but it rarely happens that way.
Always consider all the options though. Maybe you can raise with a draw on the flop in position and get a free turn card or even get him to fold.
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  #12  
Old 06-04-2007, 12:42 PM
sputum sputum is offline
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Default Re: Pot Odds is only applicable to each bet in isolation, right?

[ QUOTE ]
Where do you see anybody saying "I'm getting 5:1 on the flop to draw to a gutshot, so I call"? That is, without the specification that you (or your opponent) will be all in?

Find a post or a book that says that and quote it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've never seen it and I've got quite a few books now. By no means a limit expert but I'm sure there are profitable spots of this ilk (if you can get >3 big bets on the turn and river) but I'm also worried about what books OP is reading. Would you mind listing them OP? Irrespective of the quote, it would reassure me to know you're not quoting Ken Warren [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
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  #13  
Old 06-04-2007, 12:42 PM
PantsOnFire PantsOnFire is offline
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Default Re: Pot Odds is only applicable to each bet in isolation, right?

[ QUOTE ]
So really I need to be sure that I'll get at least 10.5:1 after my Turn call WHEN deciding to make my Flop call? So what (in reality is the point of saying "I get 5:1 on the flop, so I'll call"???)

[/ QUOTE ]
This is not quite true. If you call on the flop for 5:1, you need to get a free card on the turn go make it a correct call. If you make that flop call for 5:1 and then need to call for 10.5:1 on the turn, that makes the flop call a mistake even though the turn call will be correct.

So overall, you will lose money playing this hand in this manner.

If you have 10.5:1 to call the flop, then the call is correct to see the turn card. Nothing in the future matters. The call for the immediate odds is coreect.

However, if you have 5:1 to call the flop, something else (in the future) needs to be true on the turn to make the call correct. This future truth could be that villain cannot make another bet because he is all-in, won't make another bet because he is passive or will call a bet by you on the turn or river when you make your hand (implied odds). You'll notice that calling another bet at 10.5:1 is not one of those future events that will make your 5:1 flop call correct.

Is this what you were looking for?
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  #14  
Old 06-04-2007, 12:55 PM
ottsville ottsville is offline
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Default Re: Pot Odds is only applicable to each bet in isolation, right?

[ QUOTE ]
In the past when I've stupidly continued past the flop with (say) bottom pair and a BDFD and I've hit the suit on the turn, I've thought "at least I have now made up for the bad play on the flop, because I now have another 9 outs"

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny - I was going to include an example just like this and say that is how fish play...they make bad(-ev) plays and then justify it the few times they hit.
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  #15  
Old 06-04-2007, 01:00 PM
ottsville ottsville is offline
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Default Re: Pot Odds is only applicable to each bet in isolation, right?

[ QUOTE ]
If on the flop you have odds to call- compared to the break-even point with TWO cards to come- then you MUST see the second card?

[/ QUOTE ]
No. If you look at your odds on the flop and are thinking about two cards to come, you have to consider that you will often have to call a bet on the turn as well to see the river. There are times where calling on the flop is correct, but calling on the turn is not.
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