NL200: Getting value from Nut Flush in position in multiway pot

[jimmytrick]

I play lower than this, but where I play I raise the flop which often takes it down and if not, masks my hand for a club turn.

[daveymck]

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I don't bet the flop because I'm much more interested in winning their stacks than the money that's in the pot on the flop. I want to give them a chance to make a very good but not best flush.

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Just seems like a FPS attitude to me, if they have flush cards as well is even less chance of the flush coming. This is a standard bet on the flop (for me I am likely to bet with anything here), build the pot so there is more chance of getting their stack in if you do hit and if you take it down now well thats fine too as all we have is ace high.

[Stonewalled]

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I don't bet the flop because I'm much more interested in winning their stacks than the money that's in the pot on the flop. I want to give them a chance to make a very good but not best flush.

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Just seems like a FPS attitude to me, if they have flush cards as well is even less chance of the flush coming. This is a standard bet on the flop (for me I am likely to bet with anything here), build the pot so there is more chance of getting their stack in if you do hit and if you take it down now well thats fine too as all we have is ace high.

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Thanks.

Can you address the variable of possibly getting raised off our hand?

Also, I want to say it's not just the flush possibility for our opponent that gives us a chance at stacks -- straights, sets and 2-pairs are also possible.

As for your point that if villain has flush cards, then the flush possibility is less, I say it doesn't matter much in view of the opportunity to win his stack if it hits (we're talking 2 less outs versus a potentially huge payoff).

Finally, I don't yet see how this is FPS. To me, it is simply an application of the philosophy that the primary object of NL play is to win stacks, not pots.

[Raised2Win]

UTG has shown he doesn't have a hand, if he has a hand he has slowplayed it big time and wont really scare if we raise the bet on turn. I think raising the turn is better than smooth calling, your opponent cant really know what u have here, since u can have various hands.

[CalledDownLight]

Raise turn to $55 here, but definitely bet the flop. I doubt you get an overcall from UTG here and a paired board and club rivers are both bad for you.

[QTip]

Why do you choose $55?

Why do you want to raise the turn?

Is it stupid to want to raise the turn now because you don't want another club to slow him down on the river?

[CalledDownLight]

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Why do you choose $55?

Why do you want to raise the turn?

Is it stupid to want to raise the turn now because you don't want another club to slow him down on the river?

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$55 just seems like a pretty good amount and will allow you to get a decent river bet in also. You don't want to wait to raise because he might check river anyways and another club will kill your action since you have the nut flush and if he has a hand like 2 pair then you get no value on the river. Also, if he has a low flush he will probably c/f or c/c a club river.

[Mr_Donktastic]

You should really bet this flop in last position in a 3 way pot.

As others have said if they have the FD they are calling anyway - you don't have to worry about that. You can't stack a FD unless you get some chips in now. I don't get your argument aobut trying to win stacks btw. Poker is about winning $$$ it doesn't matter in what increments.

Also, think aobut it this way...if both players have TP, or one player has TP and one has a FD - your pot equity is greater than the actual % of $ you are putting in the pot. That is +ev. In other words you would be happy to have both players to call your flop bet...

And you can't be worried about getting raised off your hand...if they raise, you poosh - that simple.

As played on the turn I could see playing either way, but would lean towards flat calling given how you played the flop.

If you bet the flop, got called, then got donked into on the turn I would DEF raise.

[daveymck]

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Finally, I don't yet see how this is FPS. To me, it is simply an application of the philosophy that the primary object of NL play is to win stacks, not pots.

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The idea is to win money sometimes its from stacking people when big hands clash, sometimes its from building pots with our monster draws and hitting and sometimes its from habitually making plays at pots like this when we have position and noone seems interested in it, taking down 3-4 pots like this a session soon adds up and sets up the big pot winning hands for later, to reiterate at this point you still have nothing semi bluff taking down the pot here is a decent result.

We also dont play our hands in a vacuam (cant spell its early) by playing this hand the same if you have air, pairs trips, draws whatever, then your hand is actually more disguised and your subsequent play harder to read. By betting here they are less likely to put you on the flush when it hits and if it hits and they see you bet draws chances are they overplay their hands when you have your monster sets etc.

I think its FPS more cos it seems you are trying to be too clever and outhink and outplay your opponants and in doing so maybe outthinking yourself. At these levels playing a very abc straightforward stlye is the key to making decent money not being over clever.

BTW I am a total nit and fold this preflop. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Stonewalled]

Just read these last 2 replies. Thanks for those and all the others. Very helpful.