50NL AQ family pot

[rivhawk02]

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But look at this hand. He ended up all-in and was almost certainly behind the whole way and drew out on the end. His lack of planning got him there. Being out of position got him there. Getting pot-stuck with the worst hand got him there. That just doesn't sound like winning poker to me.


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I agree with ocdscale saying that this poster is very results oriented. Only good things can happen with the pre flop raise.

1. Take down dead money
2. get it heads up so that a c-bet takes it down most of the time.
3. If everyone calls hero will hit the flop 1/3 of the time into $15 pot having invested $3 and it will still be profitable

Also im assuming hero isn't c-betting into the board if it didnt look like this (Nut flush draw, two overs) or something with a queen or ace in it because its a family pot and we're likely to push no one off their hand if they're that loose pre-flop. So, if hero doesn't hit, they lose $3 total with all points above making up for that $3 over the long run.

[ActionStan]

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This reeks of "I don't raise KK preflop when a lot of people limp because I just know they'll call and draw out on me."
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Please don't take not wanting to engage in a big, multi-way pot with AQo as espousing not raising from the SB. You absolutely want to play your big cards strongly in this case. JJ+, AK, maybe AQs and TT, throw in a big raise.

[ActionStan]

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I agree with ocdscale saying that this poster is very results oriented. Only good things can happen with the pre flop raise.
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I think this hand is an example of the bad things that happen when you build big pots out of position. This result was likely very good for the guy. Still, he probably got all of his money in bad. That's looking at the structure of the play, not the results of the hand.

Given where he was, I don't think the hand was played well. Post-flop he put himself in harms way with his lead bet. He put himself in a place where he could be set all-in and have to call off all of his chips with out the advantages of his fold equity.

You build the structure you have to play post flop with your actions pre-flop. Here he decided to build a pot. Given that he built a big pot with his raise, he would be better off checking. If someone behind him where to bet, he could then move in, maximizing the advantages of his hand. He has a big draw. The advantages of big draws are fold equity. Fold equity is not exercised by sizing the pot so that someone can move in and make you call off all you chips from behind. That isn't good planning.

Again, that has nothing to do with the results of this hand and everything to do with the structure set up from the very first bet. The player never allowed the advantages of his hand to come into play even though he probably won a big pot.

Back to the pre-flop raise. I will grant that throwing in a big raise is far, far better than a small one. This really is a hand you would prefer to resolve early, especially since you are in the SB. Many good things can happen when you raise. Sure. Absolutely. Aggressive play is winning play. You should be playing your big hands strongly. Is AQo a big hand? With 100BB behind, not really. If you have 20-30BB behind, then it's a great hand. Make a big bet and look to get in on the flop. If you have 100BB, it just doesn't set up that well especially if you have a loose player that is going to call behind you and drag in a bunch of other callers behind. Me, I aim to play small pots when I don't have natural, structural advantages and big ones when I do.

[ActionStan]

I admit it, I'm not just nitty I'm super nitty in the SB. (Especially in games where people call too much like NL50.)

[ActionStan]

That 6-Max fundementals was a great post. Thanks for recommending it. Well worth the read.

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First thing I want to mention is position and the button. It is a no brainer to why position is so important in NL. Being last to act simply gives you a world of advantage over your opponents. That is why if you open up pokertracker and a large enough sample size, you will see that the button and CO is the most profitable position to play in.
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Doh! Postion! As I said, you make money in no limit in position. Apparently he and I are on the same page here.

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Example:

You are in BB or SB with AK, AQ, JJ. UTG limps, MP limp, button limps. What do you do?

Answer: RAISE THAT [censored] UP. Raise it up to 6-7 even 8x bb depending on players. Take down the pot without even seeing a flop is better than checking and playing a multiway un raised pot.
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I think this is the core of our disagreement here. I wouldn't put AQo in my re-raise range here and maybe not AQs. I might add TT. Depends on the table. All of the rest of those hands, absolutely. Raise it up. Then again, I'm playing more full ring than 6 max and here we have 4 limpers instead of 2 so the pot is going to build differently.

Notice that we are arguing about the very bottom of his range. The very bottom. You seem to think that it's obvious that we should be raising our monster. Well, we are at the bottom end of good hands and I prefer not to overplay that hand out of position. I am willing to agree that I am more nitty than this guy in the SB. But not by much. I am also looking forward to the structural disadvantages I am going to enjoy if I get two callers. Call me a nit. Call me whatever you want. But, please understand you create a structure to play future bets when you make a bet. That structure forms the basis of NL play given the escalating nature of bets. Saying that this is an obvious raise because your pressing some advantage is closing you eyes to the structure you have created for yourself. I would suggest that you re-read that article and really understand why he is playing the way he is. How he is using position. How he is not giving it up.

[Chomp]

Stan, the great thing about threads like this is that it presents an opportunity to bury one's (poker) ego, step back a moment and really think about the way you've been doing things.

I'd highly, highly recommend you treat this thread in that spirit. Winning an argument is secondary.

Now, I had a 25BI downswing at 50NL not long ago so I am not claiming to be Daddy Bigcheese. I'm just saying if you genuinely open your mind to what Andrew is saying you could take something away from this thread that will change your game and maybe plug a big leak.

A golden opportunity, so don't let it slip.


Cheers.

[tiger_hall]

i dont like the turn bet... you want this player in the hand on the river as you are expecting to make your flush so another person to pay you off...
i would bet about $12 which looks very weak... this is good as u are..

[ActionStan]

Hey Chomp,

Thanks for the feedback. I do think the article is very good. Honestly.

I also think that Andrew and I are arguing at the margins, at least in terms of what to do with AQo out of position.

I am also being honest when I said I enjoyed the back and forth. I think getting things out of threads like these are all about the back and forth.

You are right that my tone was probably too strong towards the end. I think the same could fairly be said of Andrew.

[mikechops]

I'd agree with Stan's comments about being OOP, but I think AQ is just too good a hand not to raise here. I'd usually make it a little more than pot to discourage the multiway spot you find yourself in.

What is the worst hand you would raise up here? IMO AJ is very questionable and AQ is possibly the borderline hand for me.