2/4 B&M - AKh vs A86 (all spades); wait for safe turn card?

[Dan87]

how is hellmuth terrible at LHE when he played it all through college and was a winning player

[tyler_cracker]

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Find out where you are while it's cheap.

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this is a terrible reason to raise.

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Can you explain this to me?

Maybe I misunderstand the concept, but when you say raise for value, are you saying put money in while we are ahead and get opponent to commit money when behind?

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it isn't so much to put money in while we're ahead as putting money in while we have an equity edge. think about those times you raise with a flush draw -- your 9-high or whatever isn't ahead, but you figure to be best by the river often enough.

but i think you have the basic idea.

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If we are raising for value, aren't we getting information as well? Like if SB calls and checks, or if he 3 bets and continues showing aggression...

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information is often an ancillary benefit of raising, but it should never[**] be your sole or even primary reason for raising.

there's also a famous old Ed Miller post about raising "to find out where you're at" that you might want to look up.


[**] if you don't like "nevers" in poker, you can read this as "very, very, very rarely"

[Christian_Peters]

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I'm having trouble knowing how to play flops of all one suit when I catch a big piece (TPTK for example) without one of the suit. What's the general plan here? Do I simply call the flop, lead/raise a non-spade turn and check/fold a spade turn? Or do I raise the flop, then ditto for the rest?


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Grunch***

You must raise this flop. The pot is size-able and there's a player behind you that you do not want in the hand. SB could be donking with anything here, including just flush draw. Your hand is good here much more than 50% of the time, but you would really like BTN to fold.

When I flop TPTK and someone donks me on a monotone flop, my usual line is to assume I have the best hand until I am given further evidence to the contrary. A donkbet is not evidence. A flop 3-bet of your raise is evidence, and a turn c/r is strong evidence.

[Xhad]

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how is hellmuth terrible at LHE when he played it all through college and was a winning player

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If he plays like his book would indicate he must have been playing in games that were softer than the stars .25/.50. No jopke.

[deemark]

I would call and see what happens behind you.If people start raising you. You can throw your hand away. Keep calling all the way unless a fourth spade hits or someone starts raising. I mean you should not build the pot on the flop for those who is drawing for a flush.Really you do not like the flop you just wants to get away cheap. Do not escalate the pot!

[Rottersod]

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I would call and see what happens behind you.If people start raising you. You can throw your hand away. Keep calling all the way unless a fourth spade hits or someone starts raising. I mean you should not build the pot on the flop for those who is drawing for a flush.Really you do not like the flop you just wants to get away cheap. Do not escalate the pot!

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This makes no sense. If you don't like the flop then just check/fold. All you're doing by calling is keeping everyone else in to catch up to you.

[deemark]

The pot is too big to check/fold. I mean you have top pair with top kicker.I still think it is best to call on the turn but if a safe card comes on the turn maybe you should raise then depending on the action on the flop of course. If nobody raise on the flop go ahead and raise on the turn.

[James.]

i think calling and raising a nonspade turn is fine, but so is raising the flop.

fwiw, since an ace is already out there are fewer "scare" cards(outside of spades) that can come on the turn to kill the action, so that is an advantage to waiting and raising fourth street. if the pot was a bit bigger or smaller i would prefer waiting.

given there's 11sb in the pot, i think we can raise the flop to clear out some of the field and solicit value from the high spades while simultaneously encouraging the smaller/medium ones to fold. if a fourth spade comes this amounts to saving the entire pot on occasion when our flop raise folds out say, the T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], and we get HU with SB who often has a worse ace.

[PokrLikeItsProse]

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given there's 11sb in the pot, i think we can raise the flop to clear out some of the field and solicit value from the high spades while simultaneously encouraging the smaller/medium ones to fold. if a fourth spade comes this amounts to saving the entire pot on occasion when our flop raise folds out say, the T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], and we get HU with SB who often has a worse ace.

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How do you feel about raising if the table is so loose-passive that it won't chase out a hand like 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]?

[James.]

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given there's 11sb in the pot, i think we can raise the flop to clear out some of the field and solicit value from the high spades while simultaneously encouraging the smaller/medium ones to fold. if a fourth spade comes this amounts to saving the entire pot on occasion when our flop raise folds out say, the T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], and we get HU with SB who often has a worse ace.

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How do you feel about raising if the table is so loose-passive that it won't chase out a hand like 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]?

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if they're not folding, they're paying to play.