|
|
#11
05-31-2007, 05:19 AM
|
|||
|
|||
Re: How does it interest God to give us free will?
A lot of theologians admit that their positions can't be based on rationality but that they are based on revelation and belief. If NotReady consistently insists that he can base his positions on reason he's pretty much alone with that.
And if he says he can't base his positions on reason but he can defend them rationally, that's silly. It's like I claim "there is a mermaid living in my cellar" and then I try to come up with good rational reasons to defend that position but does it really makes sense if your whole premise and claim is not based on reason? I know belief in 'cellar mermaids' is not common but has the fact that a belief is common ever been evidence that it's true? Witches, perhaps? What if I say I had a spiritual experience and that I felt the mermaid's presence in the cellar. You could interpret that as one subjective way of trying to understand God's revelations like PairTheBoard likes to put it. So is there really a difference between a belief in a 'cellar mermaid' and one version of God if we discount popularity (which also tells us that there are numerous interpretations of God, why can't my mermaid be one of them? Who decides which revelation is close enough to true God?) 
|
|
#12
05-31-2007, 06:16 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: How does it interest God to give us free will?
[ QUOTE ]
A lot of theologians admit that their positions can't be based on rationality but that they are based on revelation and belief. If NotReady consistently insists that he can base his positions on reason he's pretty much alone with that. And if he says he can't base his positions on reason but he can defend them rationally, that's silly. It's like I claim "there is a mermaid living in my cellar" and then I try to come up with good rational reasons to defend that position but does it really makes sense if your whole premise and claim is not based on reason? I know belief in 'cellar mermaids' is not common but has the fact that a belief is common ever been evidence that it's true? Witches, perhaps? What if I say I had a spiritual experience and that I felt the mermaid's presence in the cellar. You could interpret that as one subjective way of trying to understand God's revelations like PairTheBoard likes to put it. So is there really a difference between a belief in a 'cellar mermaid' and one version of God if we discount popularity (which also tells us that there are numerous interpretations of God, why can't my mermaid be one of them? Who decides which revelation is close enough to true God?) [/ QUOTE ] I think the rational and intelligent theist would respond that you're free to have your mermaid interpretation. But they would also say that since nobody shares your interpretation we shouldn't give it much credence. They would also probably say that majority rules, so if your views are unpopular, you better go out and try to change some people's minds.
|
|
#13
05-31-2007, 09:08 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: How does it interest God to give us free will?
[ QUOTE ]
So is there really a difference between a belief in a 'cellar mermaid' [/ QUOTE ] Is there really a difference between the tooth fairy and "it all popped up out of nothing for no reason"?
|
|
#14
05-31-2007, 09:43 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: How does it interest God to give us free will?
[ QUOTE ]
For instance, He knew that the apple would be eaten. [/ QUOTE ] Maybe he didn't? Is it possible god is all-powerful but, in his desire for his creatures to have true free will, decided to somehow "block" his ability to see the future? In other words, god knew that if he could see everything that will happen, his creatures would only have the illusion of free will. He wanted us to truly have free will, so he self-imposed this one limit on his powers. Kind of a stretch but seems as good an explanation as any.
|
|
#15
05-31-2007, 10:19 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: How does it interest God to give us free will?
[ QUOTE ]
decided to somehow "block" his ability to see the future? [/ QUOTE ] The Bible says the crucifixion was foreknown by God so He also must have foreseen Adam's sin. Even without that, there's no reason for God to limit His foreknowledge.
|
|
#16
05-31-2007, 10:23 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: How does it interest God to give us free will?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] decided to somehow "block" his ability to see the future? [/ QUOTE ] The Bible says the crucifixion was foreknown by God so He also must have foreseen Adam's sin. Even without that, there's no reason for God to limit His foreknowledge. [/ QUOTE ] sigh, another theist who thinks he understands gods reasoning methods. luckyme
|
|
#17
05-31-2007, 10:26 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: How does it interest God to give us free will?
[ QUOTE ]
sigh, another theist who thinks he understands gods reasoning methods. [/ QUOTE ] The more you post the more irrational you appear.
|
|
#18
05-31-2007, 10:35 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: How does it interest God to give us free will?
[ QUOTE ]
Even without that, there's no reason for God to limit His foreknowledge. [/ QUOTE ] Fair enough but there is a contradiction here. If god knew Adam would eat the apple there was really no point in his whole "don't eat from that tree" charade. And free will would in fact be an illusion for Adam in that case. So I'd think god either a)didn't really give us free will, b)does not really have knowledge of everything that will ever happen, or c)chose to limit his knowledge specifically where human free will was concerned. Is there another option I am missing?
|
|
#19
05-31-2007, 10:38 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: How does it interest God to give us free will?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] sigh, another theist who thinks he understands gods reasoning methods. [/ QUOTE ] The more you post the more irrational you appear. [/ QUOTE ] sorry, I thought you made a comment about gods reasoning on a specific topic and used it in an argument you were making. my bad. withdrawn. luckyme
|
|
#20
05-31-2007, 10:56 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: why does God do what He does?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] d) We humans do not have free will (because of b, c). However, we have the illusion of free will. [/ QUOTE ] We've had a few rounds on this one. My contention is that foreknowledge doesn't prevent free will. It's the difference between inevitability and necessity. If it's inevitable that Adam will sin, but not necessary, then it's easy to speculate on why God would allow it to occur, though I don't think anyone can be dogmatic. I usually fall back on the idea contained in Genesis, that God said after each act of creation that it was good. Most theologians say the overall good outweighs the bad. Hard for us finite humans to make that judgment, which is one reason God communicates to us . [/ QUOTE ] When was the last transmission from the mother ship? Phone Call? Burning Bush? Voice from the sky? You may communicate "to god".....but not the other way around.
|
 |
|
|
Linear Mode
