The Well: youtalkfunny

[Mojo56]

What are the odds of me getting a job in the sports book industry in Las Vegas when I retire at 55 (5 years from now)? Qualifications: AA in computer programming and a BS in accounting with a minor in business administration; have been involved with sports gambling since I was 15 so I am very familiar with the customer side of the counter; have owned and operated a small (10 employees) bar and grill for the past 21 years. Would there be a spot for an old guy like me?

Do you know Sonny Palermo?

Is there a worse buffet in Vegas than the IP's?

Thanks for taking the time to do this.

[B00T]

How old are you?

Did you ever see The Runner with John Goodman? Is anything in that flick accurate at all?

How come no sites are able to duplicate what Pinnacle has done?

This goes along with the above question, how are square sites so square? Can't they employ 2 people for $200k a year and save that much in a month?

[youtalkfunny]

After I typed this post, I was reminded of a scene I saw recently on an old "The West Wing" episode, where President Bartlet was struggling to come up with a clever toast to give at his wife's birthday party:

CHARLIE: Do you love her?

BARTLET: Very much.

CHARLIE: Then that's that.

BARTLET: No. You have to understand, in my family, if someone uses one word when they could have used ten, they're just not trying.

So forgive my less-than-concise answers in this thread.

On we go:


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From the book's side, were you happy, sad or indifferent when a sharp bettor came in to bet on a prop or side?

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You need to remember that the IP was a small book. I don't mean it's in a small room, I mean the max bets were very small. We had a $500 max on our props, match-ups, and other "other" bets. We put a 30-cent line on them, jumping to 40-cents when it rose to -180/+140.

The Sharps knew they had to fade a long, long walk to get to our sports book, and when they got there, they didn't expect to find much value.

And our Ace in the hole was Ed Salmons, the sports book manager (currently at the LV Hilton). His opinion went into just about every line that went up on our board, and he's one tough SOB to try beat. Ask around the Strip who the sharpest linesmakers in town are, and if Ed's name isn't on the short list, then you're not asking the most knowledgeable people.

Beating Ed is tough; beating a 30-cent line is tough. When those two join forces, you've got a very uphill fight on your hands. Because of this, and our low limits, the sharps pretty much stayed away. Which was fine by us. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Our goal, as a sportsbook, was not so much "to make money". That was certainly a secondary goal, but our primary goal was "to attract people on to the property, and into the casino". Connie Ross was in charge of sales and marketing back then, and she focused her efforts on promoting the unique attractions offered by the IP: the antique car collection, and a sports book that offered unique bets. As I mentioned above, we would get players every day who would tell us, "I'm staying at the Sahara, and a guy over there said you might have a bet that I'm looking for..." People knew that if you wanted a prop, the IP was the place to go.

When your primary goal is not "to make money", then you don't have to battle the sharps if you don't want to. And we didn't want to. Why would we? Tourists playing parlay cards was enough to handle the "to make money" aspect of our jobs. The rest of the operation was geared to attract players to the property--and I certainly don't mean players who turn up their noses to -EV table games and slot machines.

Still, a Sharpie would come in from time to time, especially when the Super Bowl props were up. You asked if that made us feel good, bad, or indifferent. We never felt bad--we had the 30-cent cushion and Ed on our side. We usually felt indifferent.

The times we felt good was when we knew the sharp was playing a scalp. This means somebody else is offering the same prop, at a much different price. Now, instead of banging heads with the Sharp on this bet, he has turned us against the other book, and we are banging heads with the guy who offered the wacky price. Whenever that happened, we liked our chances--we felt confident that our number was sharper than theirs.

[ QUOTE ]
A couple of different examples:

A. IP thinks fair value in a prop is -1000 on the "No" but posts a line of +250 on "Yes" and -400 on "No". A sharp bettor comes in and pops it for the max at -400. Happy, sad or indifferent?

[/ QUOTE ]

That "Slash Prop" phenomenon was very unique. We would almost never shade a line that much before taking the first bet on it. And if we did, even the squares could see the value was gone, and lay off it for the most part.

I was surprised the sharps didn't come in and start laying the -400 right away on that one. They waited, and waited, and waited, and then started to take some back the day before the game. Now, instead of laying a big price, they were getting better than even money.

In this unique case, if I recall correctly, we'd resist the urge to move line after a Sharp took it for the limit. Usually, that was like giving the Sharp the green light to whack it again if he liked. But in this case, we made it clear to the Sharp that $500 was all he was getting--we had much the best of this one, and we weren't looking for partners to share this wealth.

I'm sure that, for many of you, such a stance from a bookmaker would spark the thought, "Then I'll just find a beard to bet it again for me." Believe it or not, this wasn't a problem for us. We didn't treat the Sharps with disdain and disrespect, the way pit personnel treat card counters. We were always polite and respectful, and we got respect in return. If we told a Sharp, "We'll let you bet this under the following conditions...", they went along. Mostly because they knew that trying to screw us meant permanently losing an out; but partly because they respected the way we treated them, as well as the job we had to do.

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B. IP thinks fair line is even money. They make it -115 / -115. A known sharp player comes in and bets the Yes at -115. IP moves the line to -130 / +100. Two minutes later, a different known sharp player that IP thinks is not related to the first comes in and bets the max on the Yes at -130. Happy, sad or indifferent.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a much more common scenario than Example A above.

First, I should note that after we moved the line from -115 to -130 (actually, -135 or -140 would be the more likely move, depending on the bettor and the sport), the original bettor was welcome to bet it again. We don't need a second, unrelated bettor for this example. Again, that Slash example where we'd discourage someone from betting it twice was a very unique, specific situation. It was common to see someone bet a prop, then stay at the window and see how far we'd move the line, in case he wanted to bet it again. Now you see why we'd move it more than 15 cents.

This was all standard, so "good" would be the answer. I was going to go with "indifferent", but it was frustrating to put work into props that nobody would bet, so at least this prop was getting some action, and that made us feel good.

[ QUOTE ]
C. IP thinks the fair line should be -110 on the "yes", but they've gotten so much action on it from squares that they've moved the line to -180 / +150. A sharp player comes in and bets No +150. Happy, sad or indifferent?

[/ QUOTE ]

Usually, happy that our books were being balanced.

There are rare situations where our EV was so high, we didn't want to trade it in for balance, and if a Sharp bought some back, we'd be disappointed.

A great example of this was the NFL prop:

Will either team score in the last 2 minutes of the first half?
YES -210
NO +170

The squares loved the "No" on this one. We knew the "Yes" was the prohibitive favorite, so we'd give the squares all the +170 they wanted. If a Sharp came in and laid the -210, we'd feel disappointment.

Again, this was a rare, specific exception. For the most part, we wanted to balance our books, and let the parlay cards pay our rent.

[King Yao]

Thanks for the response! Its close to what I expected, but its always nice to hear from the other side of the counter as opposed to making assumptions.

I've always enjoyed betting props at the IP and now at the Hilton (limits are 2K on SB props!). It always felt like a professional atmosphere which is a nice change of pace compared to some other books. They also have such a large selection of props during the Super Bowl, that even though most of them were right on, there were always a few that had value, provided you got there early enough before other sharps hit the lines.

[Moneyline]

Thanks for doing this youtalkfunny.

In which sports and events did you find the books had the best winrates? Not just in terms of gross profits (I'd be shocked if NFL wasn't the clear winner in this regard) but in terms EV per bet. Which sports were the worst? Did this differ at all from B&M and online?

On a totally different note, aside from the Super Bowl, heavyweight title bouts, and March Madness, what sports-betting events would specifically draw lots of tourists to Vegas.

[youtalkfunny]

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1) How did you get into the bookmaking business?

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SHORT VERSION: I replied to an ad in the paper, looking for ticket writers. I put in some years as a ticket writer, and was finally rewarded with a promotion to supervisor.

LONG VERSION (skip it if you like): When I was discharged from the army, I didn't want to move back home. There were no jobs back home--that's why I joined the army!

When the army made it clear I was no longer welcome, I knew I'd have to go somewhere there were jobs.

I saw a news report on tv that The Dunes was going to be imploded, and replaced with a new hotel/casino. There was nothing wrong with The Dunes. It was just old, and was being torn down to be replaced by the same thing, only newer.

It blew me away that somebody would just throw away a perfectly good hotel. I thought, "There must be jobs out there." So I bought a one-way bus ticket to Las Vegas.

I spent my first days sightseeing, walking through the various casinos for the first time. I saw lots of employees doing jobs that I thought I could do, such as porter or front desk. But my jaw dropped when I saw the sports book. Guys were sitting on stools, surrounded by televised sports. They weren't doing anything! They were laughing and joking and watching seven baseball games, and every few minutes, taking a break from that to write a ticket.

I didn't plan on being picky in my upcoming job search, but I knew that "race/sports book" would be at the top of my Wish List.

That Sunday, I bought the RJ, and perused the jobs listings. I made a list of all the Seven-Elevens I'd be visiting, when I was shocked to see a listing for "race/sports book ticket writers" at The Poker Palace.

I had never heard of The Poker Palace. Their address was in the ad. I bought a map, and learned that there was a North Las Vegas, a place the tourists never go.

I took the bus out to the Poker Palace early Monday morning, and filled out an application. HR sent me and my app to the book, to interview with the race/sports book manager.

HIM: You don't really want to work here, do you?

ME: I really want to work here. I know a lot about sports. My Dad trains thoroughbreds, so I already know all about horse betting. I had a Top Secret security clearance in the army, so you can expect that I won't be trying to steal any money...

HIM: I can only pay you minimum wage.

ME: I'll take less, if that will get me the job.

That got his eyebrows to arch. Running a store that pays minimum wage, he wasn't used to enthusiasm.

I started right away. I soon learned that ticket writers on the Strip make more than minimum wage, so I planned to go look for one of those jobs, once I got some experience and learned how to actually write tickets. I didn't know that most books didn't require any experience for the job.

After six months, I was ready to move on, when I was offered a promotion to Supervisor (the supervisors didn't stick around for long, either). I saw this as a stellar opportunity to learn about bookmaking, instead of just ticket writing, so I agreed. I went out and bought Roxy's book on race/sports book management, and began my education in earnest.

A few months later, I had once again reached the point where I thought that I had learned all they had to teach me, and I was ready to start looking for a better-paying job, when they offered me the position of race/sports book manager. I'd been there less than a year, and I had worked my way up from entry-level to running my own book. My ego was all over that offer, and I took the job--for less money than a lot of ticket writers around town were making at that time.

That didn't last long. Being the top guy, there was nobody left to learn anything from. The manager who had hired me had since got a job writing tickets at the IP, and when they needed some writers, he put in a good word for me. I left the Poker Palace to go write tickets at the IP.

Spoiled by my rapid rise through the ranks at the Poker Palace, I was frustrated that it took a few years before I was up for a promotion at the IP. I was even more frustrated when I was passed over the first time, a decision that infuriated me then, but I understand it perfectly now--I had a big mouth. Once I learned to mellow out a little, I was given the next supervisor slot to become available.

[ QUOTE ]
2) Which off-shore sites have you worked at?

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I worked at a small book that started up in 2001, and went belly-up in 2002.

Forgive me if I dodge specific questions about that business failing, but my posting about the experience cost me a very dear friendship, and I'm not eager to open old wounds.

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3) How does working at the IP differ from working at off-shore sites?

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It's so different, you almost can't compare the two.

The biggest difference is that offshore, if you have a bad day, you don't have 3000 slot machines and 50 table games to pick up the slack. You have to win, win, win, or you're dead. You're not attached to a 2500-room hotel full of suckers who want to fade a 30% parlay card.

The players who visit your site are, by definition, more sophisticated than the suckers strolling the Strip. Just the fact that they've HEARD OF your web site indicates that they have a clue.

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4) Why did you leave?

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I got married and had kids. Sitting on a stool and watching games on tv is a lot of fun, but it's not the highest-paying job in the world.

They don't have to offer a lot of money, because there's a long line of guys who would do it for very little. Before I had kids, it was common for me to show for work two hours early, and stay two hours late, off the clock. It was just a fun place to hang out.

[ QUOTE ]
5) What are you doing now?

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I'm a poker dealer in Tunica. I've been doing that since 2000, except for that one year offshore.

I originally turned down the offer to to go offshore, but they offered me a ton of money, so I went. When the company performed below expectations, there was no ton of money to be had, so I came back home and got my old job back.

[youtalkfunny]

[ QUOTE ]
What's the largest bet you booked at IP? The largest you paid out? The best bet? The worst bet (might be Tiger to win the Slam at 2-1 per above).

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Largest booked: That Steelers/Cowboys Super Bowl. We were WAY heavy with Steelers ML bets. We kept lowering the price, but nobody would buy it back. We had a 14-point favorite at -400, and no takers. Finally, a Sharp came in on Game Day, and asked if we wanted more than the limit. Ed and Jay decided to give him a lot more, and he laid $20k to win $5k.

Largest paid out: Every now and then, one of those parlay cards would hit, and you'd have to pay out ten dimes or so.

Disappointed with those answers? Like I said the IP was a small book.

Best bet: I don't know how I would determine that. I guess any time we deliberately sought unbalanced action, and somebody was sharp enough to see that and get on our side of it, that would have to be it.

Worst bet: This one is easy. The original Dream Team (Bird, Magic, Jordan, Barkley, etc) to win the Gold Medal at Barcelona opened at -9900, or 1-to-99.

One of the first bets we took on it was from a tourist who laid $5 to win $.05...and then he asked for instructions to collect by mail! He wasn't going to win enough to pay for the stamp!

[ QUOTE ]
Did you ever cut off action from a sharp player? If so, was it a regular occurrence or do books usually welcome all comers? Can you provide any detail? I absolutely abused an errant line for UFC 71 and I had the feeling that the book was ready to ask for ID and then bounce me... no one I'd talked to had heard of anyone bounced from a vegas book for betting an available line but it made me wonder.

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If you think the IP was a small book, you should see The Poker Palace. The max bet on NFL sides was $300. That is not a typo. The max bet on baseball totals was $50.

One of the supervisors training me once told a player who was picking off our weak numbers for max bets, "My job is find anyone who wants to bet real money, and throw them out of here. If you want to play parlay cards, we'll welcome your action."

The IP wasn't as drastic, but we made it clear with our limits that Sharp play was not welcome. We didn't hesitate to tell anybody, "You're too tough for us." Again, we did it professionally and respectfully, so nobody ever got upset about it.

I don't think any book "Welcomes all comers". That book I worked offshore did, and they were out of business in less than a year. DUCY?

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Would you classify the IP "Dealertainers" as the worst tragedy to ever befall mankind or merely as the greatest abomination of our lifetime?

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I was long gone before that idea came to fruition, so I cannot comment intelligently.

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Favorite book? Movie? Band/artist?

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Book: Shogun, James Clavell (it's like The Sopranos in 16th-century Japan, with a little Back to the Future culture shock thrown in)

Movie: Reservoir Dogs. Totally changed Hollywood.

Band/Artist: After 30 years of calling myself a Billy Joel fan, I'm finally tired of him, probably because he hasn't released new stuff since the mid-80's.

I've always like Roxette, even though the list of their flaws (they know about three chords; English is not their native language, and their lyrics are incredibly bad) far outweighs the list of their virtues. But they keep coming up with simple, pleasing melodies. There's something almost Beatles-esque about the simplicity of it, and that's a good thing.

I'm really in a Rat Pack phase now. One of my Sirius buttons is set to the Sinatra channel, and I'm eating up all the Dean and Sammy I can get my hands on. Those guys could bring it!

[youtalkfunny]

[ QUOTE ]
What are the odds of me getting a job in the sports book industry in Las Vegas when I retire at 55 (5 years from now)? Qualifications: AA in computer programming and a BS in accounting with a minor in business administration; have been involved with sports gambling since I was 15 so I am very familiar with the customer side of the counter; have owned and operated a small (10 employees) bar and grill for the past 21 years. Would there be a spot for an old guy like me?

[/ QUOTE ]

Visit any sportsbook. Everyone who writes tickets is either very young, or very old. It's a low-paying job.

If you want to start out as a supervisor (one who approves bets and moves lines), forget it. The only qualification for that is experience as a bookmaker at another legally licensed casino. Other than that, you put your time in as a ticket writer. I had to put in FIVE YEARS at the IP before being promoted, because there was almost no turnover among the supervisors. My experience as a supervisor at the Poker Palace meant nothing to them.

Your only chance is to become friends with the boss. Golf with him. Golf buddies are the only guys I know who ever skipped ticket writing and went right into bookmaking--and that almost never happens.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you know Sonny Palermo?

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Know him? I trained him! I taught him everything he knows.

Actually, Ed taught him most of what he knows about bookmaking. But when I gave my notice that I was quitting to move to Mississippi, Sonny was promoted from ticket writer to replace me, and I spent my last two weeks teaching him all the technical/paperwork aspect of the job.

From the day he joined us, he was spending all his time in the office with Ed, Jeff, Jackson, Kelly, and myself, trying to learn all he could about the business.

Shortly after I left, Jay and Ed left to take over the Hilton book, Jackson left the business to pursue other interests, Jeff had already left to start up the book at The Palms, and KD left to run the book at Green Valley Ranch. Sonny got promoted to run the sportsbook, and I was kicking myself, wondering if that would've been me if I had stayed.

Given his prior experience in business, and my prior experience driving a cab, he probably would've got the bump any way. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

He's a great guy, and I'm proud to able to call him a friend.

[ QUOTE ]
Is there a worse buffet in Vegas than the IP's?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, the line is almost always short.

[hoff21]

[ QUOTE ]
4) Why did you leave?
I got married and had kids. Sitting on a stool and watching games on tv is a lot of fun, but it's not the highest-paying job in the world.

They don't have to offer a lot of money, because there's a long line of guys who would do it for very little. Before I had kids, it was common for me to show for work two hours early, and stay two hours late, off the clock. It was just a fun place to hang out.

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Poker dealers make more than a sportsbook supervisor? I worked for 4 years at an OTB in the midwest. Punching tickets and as a floor supervisor. I have a degree from UNLV in hotel management with casino op's emphasis. Do I still need to start off as ticket writer with these qualifications since it's all about "who ya know"?

[4Tay]

[ QUOTE ]

I've always like Roxette, even though the list of their flaws (they know about three chords; English is not their native language, and their lyrics are incredibly bad) far outweighs the list of their virtues. But they keep coming up with simple, pleasing melodies. There's something almost Beatles-esque about the simplicity of it, and that's a good thing.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hahaha! You should talk to my sister. She's a super hardcore Roxette fan.

I actually like some of their songs as well.

What's your favorite Roxette song?