I dunno about these Christians..

[godBoy]

Hey Taraz, thanks for the reply - I'm always keen to read your responses.

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My biggest question for Christians is involved with this very point. Even if I grant you that the Bible explains everything that you have witnessed, why is it necessarily the case that the rest of the book is true as well?

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For me personally, I don't believe anything to be true if I've had no reason to believe it to be true. So I don't accept the bible in it's entirety as Absolute Truth.

However, I do act as if I believed the bible to be absolutely true and God inspired - and this is what the virtue of Faith is all about.

Your able to trust and act accordingly - in line with the bible and as you do so you find that it either looks more or less reasonable to trust it again. This isn't as bad as you might think - it doesn't require you believing something with no evidence, it just serves as an anchor to keep people steady and not thrown about every time something bad happens.

I don't ever reason that because X is true, Y must be also true.

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It's especially perplexing since we know that many of the stories are incredibly unlikely to be true given what we know about the world and these beliefs don't seem to serve any purpose.

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This is where reasoning faculties and common sense assist the believer in making logical choices about what is and what isn't true. All communication needs interpretation to be understood, scripture should be no different. In fact because scripture is claiming to explain what doesn't come naturally you would expect interpretation to be more necessary.

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What does the Christian look like.. to you?

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You kind of avoided my question, or in effect said that there were no defining characteristics of the Christians that you have met. I'm saying that I definitely see differences and they are not at all like what Atheists on these boards would have you believe.

[godBoy]

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In fact - What I have witnessed is so perfectly explained and summed up in the bible that it leaves me without doubt that it is indeed a unique and accurate book.

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I think you have your causation messed up here a bit. The Bible is a contains very good observations of how humans interact with each other and change over time. Your observations of other humans and yourself coincide with this just as you might expect, since you're basically observing the same thing. This says nothing about the validity of the Bible as the Word of God.

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You're absolutely correct, All I said is was that it increased it's chances of being 'accurate', which you're not disputing.

[godBoy]

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I would challenge this part of your post. First of all, you make it seem like everybody who follows Christ is a happy guy who got only good out of religion. I beg to differ. I know many people who are anxious inside because of his/her religion and religious things bother them but they choose to ignore it. I wouldn't say religious belief is only a one way street to happiness - it definately is for some, I'm sure a lot of people have benefited from it during hardships but it has also many negative emotional effects to people. Some may not reveal them and dare I say the more "fundamental" one is in his/her faith the less he says any bad things about it. But these moderate Christians who I've met can sometimes tell a lot about their personal anxieties concerning the universe, God etc.

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Firstly, i'm not suggesting that the Christian life is beer and skittles.
I suppose the 'anxiety' you are describing is that of the Christian who feels ashamed because they keep sinning, and the religion tells them that what they are doing is 'evil'.
This type of shame is common amongst Christians, though it can lead two directions - You either keep sinning until you see nothing wrong with the sin, or you beat the habit and live rightly. One response turns you into a hellish creature the other, a heavenly one.

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It's very hard to tell whether religion has more comforting and positive effects or anxious and negative effects. It probably is impossible. What I'm arguing is that you can be perfectly happy without religious belief - especially if you have not been brought up in one and you have not built your view of the world and your personal image around it.

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True, though I find it reasonable that it's not possible for one with only one view to understand the difference between two views.
I've done life without belief in God and with a belief in God, only now can I compare the two lives and see the differences. While you say you are perfectly happy - I don't deny that for a second but it's possible that there is something greater that you are unaware of.

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If I suspected that people absolutely need religion in their lives I probably wouldn't "crusade" against dogmatic religion even if it wasn't true. I don't know. Maybe comfort and happiness are more important than the truth if the truth makes us unhappy. But since I don't think this is the case I am hoping that we can "tone down" the major religions and maybe get rid of the biggest negative side of religion - the effect of dividing people around the world.

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I believe in truth also - I think it's a most important thing - far far above comfort and happiness.

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Also, you say that you notice so many similarities between the Bible and your experiences that you think it's a unique and accurate book. One thing that is good to keep in mind is that people pick and choose from the Bible. If you look hard enough you can justify almost any view you might have. A lot of the teachings of Jesus are great and even I can identify with those chapters which talk about love and forgiveness and the mystery of this all and stuff so I understand the view of thinking the Bible is a great book. Partly it is, partly it's not. We pick and choose those chapters which we like and we interpret things from the Bible to suit our own view. There's nothing wrong with that and it's completely in tune with our nature but it's good thing to keep in mind. I bet you could find a lot of stuff from the Quran or from the buddhist teachings that makes a lot of sense (naturally since you're a Christian you have a special relation with the Bible but I guess you understand what I mean).

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I think I do - though being a Christian doesn't mean I have to believe that all other religions are wrong on all points. I don't think people twist the bible as much as you might assume - I can't blame you for thinking that given the terribly inaccurate portrayals found in books written by atheist authors.

[Taraz]

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For me personally, I don't believe anything to be true if I've had no reason to believe it to be true. So I don't accept the bible in it's entirety as Absolute Truth.

However, I do act as if I believed the bible to be absolutely true and God inspired - and this is what the virtue of Faith is all about.

Your able to trust and act accordingly - in line with the bible and as you do so you find that it either looks more or less reasonable to trust it again. This isn't as bad as you might think - it doesn't require you believing something with no evidence, it just serves as an anchor to keep people steady and not thrown about every time something bad happens.

I don't ever reason that because X is true, Y must be also true.

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I am perfectly fine with this attitude. Where I get concerned is when people get a little too fundamentalist with it and start claiming certainty in their beliefs. It's also extremely worrisome to me that people want to legislate based on their beliefs. This probably worries you too though.

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This is where reasoning faculties and common sense assist the believer in making logical choices about what is and what isn't true. All communication needs interpretation to be understood, scripture should be no different. In fact because scripture is claiming to explain what doesn't come naturally you would expect interpretation to be more necessary.

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I wish more theists were as intellectually curious as you are. It's scary to me that some just take what's given to them without evaluation and thought.

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You kind of avoided my question, or in effect said that there were no defining characteristics of the Christians that you have met. I'm saying that I definitely see differences and they are not at all like what Atheists on these boards would have you believe.

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I agree with this. I agree a whole lot actually. Atheists on this message board act like every theist is a raging fundamentalist who wants to shove his views down our throats and into our laws. The sad thing is that these people get a ton of exposure in the media and are amassing a pretty wide following. It scares the crap out of me. Basically I think Christians sometimes get a bad reputation because of the few that are so in-your-face about their faith. If you know someone is a Christian before you've talked to him for a while, chances are that he is going to give you a negative portrayal of the religion.

I'll give you a little more revealing answer to your question. I have known many Christians with varying levels of devoutness. In general, the devout Christians I have met have tended to be much more polite and respectful than average. They have integrity and loyalty. Most Christians that I have known have embodied what I think are some the best qualities that a human can have.

With that said, there are also some negatives. Most Christians I know are sheltered. They haven't had exposure to many things because they try to avoid what they perceive as "sinful". I don't want to say that they judge people, but they often deal in absolutes and frown upon certain acts that really aren't all that bad. In general they are also a little less intellectually curious. I'm not sure if this is because they don't want to question their faith or if they just "know" certain things are true based on this faith. It is extremely frustrating to deal with because they often adhere to certain principles and ideals without any understanding of why they are acting that way.

One of my roommates in college was a pretty hardcore Christian. He's a great guy. But I swear that he would follow any rule no matter how ridiculous it is. It's like he just didn't want to rock the boat. This led me to understand that his sense of justice was a little warped in my view. He had too much respect for authority and he could be taken advantage of much too easily. He just deferred judgement to a superior too often and wouldn't take the time to really evaluate in many situations.

I guess I would say that in my experience Christians are very pleasant but they tend to ignore or suppress anything that challenges what they believe. This doesn't jive with me at all because I love challenging myself and updating how I see the world to make sure I'm holding an accurate viewpoint.

[Justin A]

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In fact - What I have witnessed is so perfectly explained and summed up in the bible that it leaves me without doubt that it is indeed a unique and accurate book.

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I think you have your causation messed up here a bit. The Bible is a contains very good observations of how humans interact with each other and change over time. Your observations of other humans and yourself coincide with this just as you might expect, since you're basically observing the same thing. This says nothing about the validity of the Bible as the Word of God.

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You're absolutely correct, All I said is was that it increased it's chances of being 'accurate', which you're not disputing.

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Touche.

Btw as for you original question I find it hard to say what a Christian looks like to me, because most Christians I know act just like I do most of the week, then act like a Christian when it's convenient for them (at church gatherings, with family, etc.). So my view of Christians is more based on the arguments they make to support their religion. The arguments that the average Christian makes are so horribly irrational that it's hard not to have a condescending view. I think it's important to realize that on these boards we're often discussing things with theists who don't use the ridiculous arguments that we're used to from other Christians. Failing to do that may result in some of the views you see from atheists here.

Also I think it's important to note that Christians like you are nowhere near the typical Christian, so maybe trying to get a portrayal of what a Christian looks like to us is a bad idea.

[vhawk01]

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In fact - What I have witnessed is so perfectly explained and summed up in the bible that it leaves me without doubt that it is indeed a unique and accurate book.

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I think you have your causation messed up here a bit. The Bible is a contains very good observations of how humans interact with each other and change over time. Your observations of other humans and yourself coincide with this just as you might expect, since you're basically observing the same thing. This says nothing about the validity of the Bible as the Word of God.

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You're absolutely correct, All I said is was that it increased it's chances of being 'accurate', which you're not disputing.

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Touche.

Btw as for you original question I find it hard to say what a Christian looks like to me, because most Christians I know act just like I do most of the week, then act like a Christian when it's convenient for them (at church gatherings, with family, etc.). So my view of Christians is more based on the arguments they make to support their religion. The arguments that the average Christian makes are so horribly irrational that it's hard not to have a condescending view. I think it's important to realize that on these boards we're often discussing things with theists who don't use the ridiculous arguments that we're used to from other Christians. Failing to do that may result in some of the views you see from atheists here.

Also I think it's important to note that Christians like you are nowhere near the typical Christian, so maybe trying to get a portrayal of what a Christian looks like to us is a bad idea.

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Important point. If I simply took all the times that txag or NR told me I didn't actually have any idea what real Christians believe, or what the Bible really says, or what Christianity is all about, and used their exact rebuttals, and then took up an argument with a different Christian where I used these arguments but admitted I was an atheist, I am 100% positive that within a few minutes I would be told that I have no idea what the Bible says, what real Christians believe, or what Christianity is really all about. It is really, really difficult to make any meaningful description of what Christians are really like, even solely with regards to their religious beliefs. But the opposite is also true, that Christians should be very wary of using this copout of an argument, that the silly atheist they are arguing with has no idea what Christianity is really all about. A lot of the time, the atheist is just regurgitating the explanation he got from a Christian about some specific issue.

[Taraz]

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Important point. If I simply took all the times that txag or NR told me I didn't actually have any idea what real Christians believe, or what the Bible really says, or what Christianity is all about, and used their exact rebuttals, and then took up an argument with a different Christian where I used these arguments but admitted I was an atheist, I am 100% positive that within a few minutes I would be told that I have no idea what the Bible says, what real Christians believe, or what Christianity is really all about. It is really, really difficult to make any meaningful description of what Christians are really like, even solely with regards to their religious beliefs. But the opposite is also true, that Christians should be very wary of using this copout of an argument, that the silly atheist they are arguing with has no idea what Christianity is really all about. A lot of the time, the atheist is just regurgitating the explanation he got from a Christian about some specific issue.

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QFT

That's partly why my initial description of what Christians look like to me was so broad. There is so incredibly much that Christians disagree upon amongst themselves that it is nearly impossible for an outsider to make any sense of it all.

[JussiUt]

Vhawk is exactly right. Even Christians can't agree how a Christian should look like so how can we say any better? All we can do is to realize that there are many breeds of Christianity and not all Christians are irrational, raving lunatics. A small minority is.

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Firstly, i'm not suggesting that the Christian life is beer and skittles.
I suppose the 'anxiety' you are describing is that of the Christian who feels ashamed because they keep sinning, and the religion tells them that what they are doing is 'evil'.
This type of shame is common amongst Christians, though it can lead two directions - You either keep sinning until you see nothing wrong with the sin, or you beat the habit and live rightly. One response turns you into a hellish creature the other, a heavenly one.

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Yes, this is related to that anxiety but what I would emphasize based on what I've seen that this 'anxiety' often is just pure questioning of faith. They sometimes feel some of the restrictions are harsh (battle against sins as you put it), they sometimes feel the idea of judgment when you die is scary but generally put most of them feel pressure from their world-view which includes an all-mighty and if they have any doubt whether that all-mighty exists they easily get anxious. This is just my small example size but like I said, the less fundamental or certain you are of your faith the more you're prone to suffer from anxiety. Just my opinion of course.

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True, though I find it reasonable that it's not possible for one with only one view to understand the difference between two views.
I've done life without belief in God and with a belief in God, only now can I compare the two lives and see the differences. While you say you are perfectly happy - I don't deny that for a second but it's possible that there is something greater that you are unaware of.

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Sure, you can say that I'm unaware of something. I can't prove that if all people were happily religious they would be better off than those who are just happy. I just disagree. Just for speculation's sake, I don't mean to claim anything about your personal life at all, it's possible that you had an empty feeling when you were an atheist for whatever reason and that religion filled it. Perhaps all others non-religious do not have an empty feeling. This of course is very subjective and I'm not putting any words into your mouth. One person is just a one person and his feelings are always subjective. Therefore even though you've been "on both sides of the fence" doesn't mean you have the objective difference between the two figured out but you can still have some fresh view points nevertheless.

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I think I do - though being a Christian doesn't mean I have to believe that all other religions are wrong on all points. I don't think people twist the bible as much as you might assume - I can't blame you for thinking that given the terribly inaccurate portrayals found in books written by atheist authors.

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I'm interested in how did you make the connection between the spiritual experience(s) to believing in the Bible? Was it because the environment you were in (ie. a church) or was it because you lived in a Christian surroundings? This is interesting to me but you don't need to answer if you don't want to. I'm just curious how people make that connection between the spiritual experience to certain religion.

And what comes to the atheist books giving inaccurate potrayals of religion/Christianity, like I said in the beginning of this post it's really hard to pin down a Christian because they are all so different. Not all people can relate to the religion that these atheist books are attacking against but many people do. The more liberal you are and the more intellectually curious you are the less these books probably talk about the kind of religion you experience and have.

[vhawk01]

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Important point. If I simply took all the times that txag or NR told me I didn't actually have any idea what real Christians believe, or what the Bible really says, or what Christianity is all about, and used their exact rebuttals, and then took up an argument with a different Christian where I used these arguments but admitted I was an atheist, I am 100% positive that within a few minutes I would be told that I have no idea what the Bible says, what real Christians believe, or what Christianity is really all about. It is really, really difficult to make any meaningful description of what Christians are really like, even solely with regards to their religious beliefs. But the opposite is also true, that Christians should be very wary of using this copout of an argument, that the silly atheist they are arguing with has no idea what Christianity is really all about. A lot of the time, the atheist is just regurgitating the explanation he got from a Christian about some specific issue.

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QFT

That's partly why my initial description of what Christians look like to me was so broad. There is so incredibly much that Christians disagree upon amongst themselves that it is nearly impossible for an outsider to make any sense of it all.

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But an important part of that, which is apparently the point you started from and the point I am gradually coming to, is that it isn't really very honest of the atheist or agnostic to simply cherry-pick whichever "Christian" position he finds easiest to defeat and then project that onto whatever Christian he happens to be arguing with, and force that person to defend it. What that means is that these discussions take longer than they need to, since every single time, effort must be expended to find out what this specific person believes on the relevant issues (Christianity doesn't correlate very strongly with...anything) but this effort really has to be spent if you want any meaningful exchange.

[Taraz]

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Important point. If I simply took all the times that txag or NR told me I didn't actually have any idea what real Christians believe, or what the Bible really says, or what Christianity is all about, and used their exact rebuttals, and then took up an argument with a different Christian where I used these arguments but admitted I was an atheist, I am 100% positive that within a few minutes I would be told that I have no idea what the Bible says, what real Christians believe, or what Christianity is really all about. It is really, really difficult to make any meaningful description of what Christians are really like, even solely with regards to their religious beliefs. But the opposite is also true, that Christians should be very wary of using this copout of an argument, that the silly atheist they are arguing with has no idea what Christianity is really all about. A lot of the time, the atheist is just regurgitating the explanation he got from a Christian about some specific issue.

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QFT

That's partly why my initial description of what Christians look like to me was so broad. There is so incredibly much that Christians disagree upon amongst themselves that it is nearly impossible for an outsider to make any sense of it all.

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But an important part of that, which is apparently the point you started from and the point I am gradually coming to, is that it isn't really very honest of the atheist or agnostic to simply cherry-pick whichever "Christian" position he finds easiest to defeat and then project that onto whatever Christian he happens to be arguing with, and force that person to defend it. What that means is that these discussions take longer than they need to, since every single time, effort must be expended to find out what this specific person believes on the relevant issues (Christianity doesn't correlate very strongly with...anything) but this effort really has to be spent if you want any meaningful exchange.

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Hallelujah! This is exactly why I find Dawkins et al. frustrating. It's like, "congratulations, you've successfully debunked the things that religious scholars themselves debunked over 1,000 years ago."