PFRing based on hand strength?

[jack frost]

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like threads said its obviously good to bet more if opponent is prone to overcalling.

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I don't see why you need to raise more than 4bb+1bb per limper against people whom over call. Thats what you want them to do not try to fold them. If they are over calling you should have no problem building the pot after the flop.

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I think there is a mix up in the language. I never said anything about players overcalling.

I said I will make a huge raise if they tend to call too much(aka they are loose). I will raise >5x the BB if I have a loose player that is likely to call the raise. It is just about exploiting his tendencies.

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I guess this is ok but remember if there are players behind you to act and they are any good they now know what your hand is and/or your keeping other wanted customers from comming in but I don't think raising a calling station 5bb is out of the norm as 4bb+1bb is standard if he has limped and if he hasn't what if he doesn't call but mr. 14/7 or 18/6 has a hand like a-q or k-q suited? I would want him calling too but I doubt he is if you suddlenly open for 5bb.

[tiltn'noob]

This might have some relevance: PFR Sizing

[threads13]

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like threads said its obviously good to bet more if opponent is prone to overcalling.

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I don't see why you need to raise more than 4bb+1bb per limper against people whom over call. Thats what you want them to do not try to fold them. If they are over calling you should have no problem building the pot after the flop.

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I think there is a mix up in the language. I never said anything about players overcalling.

I said I will make a huge raise if they tend to call too much(aka they are loose). I will raise >5x the BB if I have a loose player that is likely to call the raise. It is just about exploiting his tendencies.

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I guess this is ok but remember if there are players behind you to act and they are any good they now know what your hand is and/or your keeping other wanted customers from comming in but I don't think raising a calling station 5bb is out of the norm as 4bb+1bb is standard if he has limped and if he hasn't what if he doesn't call but mr. 14/7 or 18/6 has a hand like a-q or k-q suited? I would want him calling too but I doubt he is if you suddlenly open for 5bb.

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Not to give unwarranted attitude...I agree with everything you said. However, I gave the specific criteria.

Was there something unclear in my original post?

[myheadhurts]

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I don't see why you need to raise more than 4bb+1bb per limper against people whom over call. Thats what you want them to do not try to fold them. If they are over calling you should have no problem building the pot after the flop.

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Because an extra bb means the pot is 20% bigger than it would be otherwise, and hence your edge is 20% bigger. If you are the better post flop player, why wouldn't you want to maximise your edge?


I always find it strange that people want to pidgeonhole themselves as a post flop player, and therefore ignore preflop play as much as they can. Actually, its not that strange - its exactly the same as people ignoring the math behind plays. "My play is all about feel. I don't need the math - I'm a winning player, so that proves I don't need it". (Translation: "It's hard....")

(And before someone gets on my back, it's also equivilent to someone overfocusing on preflop play or on the math. The phrase "do such and such so you won't have a difficult decision later" always annoys me - don't give up value because you can't be bothered to learn to play post flop).

[jack frost]

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I don't see why you need to raise more than 4bb+1bb per limper against people whom over call. Thats what you want them to do not try to fold them. If they are over calling you should have no problem building the pot after the flop.

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Because an extra bb means the pot is 20% bigger than it would be otherwise, and hence your edge is 20% bigger. If you are the better post flop player, why wouldn't you want to maximise your edge?


I always find it strange that people want to pidgeonhole themselves as a post flop player, and therefore ignore preflop play as much as they can. Actually, its not that strange - its exactly the same as people ignoring the math behind plays. "My play is all about feel. I don't need the math - I'm a winning player, so that proves I don't need it". (Translation: "It's hard....")

(And before someone gets on my back, it's also equivilent to someone overfocusing on preflop play or on the math. The phrase "do such and such so you won't have a difficult decision later" always annoys me - don't give up value because you can't be bothered to learn to play post flop).

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I never said I couldn't play pre flop just that most non 2+2er's at my limit don't play very good post flop. I can play 99 post flop allot better than a calling station.

[Landlord79]

What about reraise sizing? It was joked about but never probed.

[Jeff76]

FWIW, I make smaller raises PF than most and I do all right. Perhaps I have more of a "small ball" strategy, but I usually raise 3x when I open a pot. This seems to work well for me, but I think I'm going to explore varying opening raises soon just to see how that goes. I will say, however, that most players I see who vary their raise sizes based on hand strength are exploitable and I take pleasure in exploiting them.

With regards to raising over limpers, I pretty much stick to the 4x+limpers forumal because meets the needs for what I'm trying to accomplish. People don't often call these raises, I find, so I don't want to raise more; neither do I want to raise less because most often if I'm raising I don't want multiple callers.

The exception to this is on the button with small pps and suited connectors, which I've begun minraising just to make the pot play twice as big. I KNOW this is exploitable, and I'm going to have to figure out a way to mix up my play there, but it IS fun to do and I get a lot of weired reactions from players when I do it.

When 3betting I usually do 3x whatever the initial raise was whether I am 3betting a strong hand or 3betting light. I do this because I find people fold too much, but I know I'm letting low PPs in light and have to be careful with my overpairss. Still, I seem to be getting value.

Now when there is a raise and a coldcaller in and I have something like aces I generally put in something really big, usually big enough to deny set odds because at that point I'm not planning on folding at any point in the hand. Basically, I feel like with a raise and a call the pot is big enough to take down immediately and I don't care how transparent my hand is if they can't profitably call me.

[Landlord79]

NH, Jeff.

I've been getting called a lot lately pf and I feel like I am leaking chips to missed flops with multiple callers.

Is AJo from MP an opening raise hand, what about raising with it behind limpers?

I've been raising 2.5x BB UTG, Pot (3.5x BB +1) in MPs and LPs, I think I like Jeff's 3x for a opening and 4x+1/limper for raising over limpers.

Also, I think I might experiment with raising big from early and less from late, just to feel it out. I do think my current style is right as far as position goes, but how can I make an informed decision w/o having tried both?

[threads13]

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NH, Jeff.

I've been getting called a lot lately pf and I feel like I am leaking chips to missed flops with multiple callers.

Is AJo from MP an opening raise hand, what about raising with it behind limpers?

I've been raising 2.5x BB UTG, Pot (3.5x BB +1) in MPs and LPs, I think I like Jeff's 3x for a opening and 4x+1/limper for raising over limpers.

Also, I think I might experiment with raising big from early and less from late, just to feel it out. I do think my current style is right as far as position goes, but how can I make an informed decision w/o having tried both?

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It probably is a good idea to experiment. It sounds like you just need to focus on what you want your raise to accomplish. Just take into account your hand, your stack, the players styles already in the pot and the players styles who have yet to act, and all their stacks. Then using your "faders" to come to a decision on what your hand is "worth."

[reno expat]

I am a fan of the pot sized opening of 3.5x BB + 1BB/limper in all positions. As to reraising, that is somewhat positional. If I'm 3-betting in position I will go slightly under the size of the pot since I'll have position on future rounds. If I'm 3-betting out of a blind, I like to make it slightly more than pot sized and shut more people out since I'll be OOP the rest of the hand.