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#11
05-24-2007, 10:11 AM
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Re: How smart is Tim Duncan?
[ QUOTE ]
he's got a pretty long wingspan and he's a very good passer out of the post... offensively he's not that dominant... roughly averaging in the low 20s in his career... definate star quality but hardly the dominant 30+ppg we've seen from the likes of shaq or 25+ppg from hakeem, robinson et al.... what makes him so good... is his work on the boards as well as his defensive presence... where he lacks in jumping ability he makmes up for it with positioning and keeping his long arms up so he can quickly swipe at the ball... still though i don't think he quite measures to the old centers back in the 90s... though i haven't really looked at it closely... i still think hakeem was loads better and the admiral was also a hair better in his prime... [/ QUOTE ] Hakeem was probally better. Duncan has had such a long stay of continued success which makes him much more successful than David. He also didn't have Jordan, Malone, and Hakeem to compete with. I think Duncan is exactly what you need in a post player. He's one of the best paint defenders ever. He's not a superstar O, but much better than your average guy. He is the best overall player in the NBA in the post Jordan era, the only guy that comes very close is Shaq. Shaq would be the best by far if not for poor conditioning. Also Duncan's bball IQ is probally one of the highest ever, especially on D. He might not be super any individual metric, but he's super rediculous on the court. 
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#12
05-24-2007, 01:44 PM
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Re: How smart is Tim Duncan?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] still though i don't think he quite measures to the old centers back in the 90s... though i haven't really looked at it closely... i still think hakeem was loads better and the admiral was also a hair better in his prime... [/ QUOTE ] This is why Duncan claims to be a 4, so he can say he's the best PF of all time (which I don't even agree with) because he wouldn't even crack the top 10 of all time centers. [/ QUOTE ] I agree, but I'm also pretty sure he'd crack the top 10 of all-time centers.
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#13
05-24-2007, 01:49 PM
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Re: How smart is Tim Duncan?
I was impressed with the size of his hands in one of those close ups they do with the star and the ball when they are doing the lineups. The announcer then commented on it early in the game, saying his hands were just huge and strong.
Obviously a NBA big man is going to have large hands, but not everyone has sick mitts that let him easily catch, rebound and hold the ball down low against other giants and quick gnats swatting at it. If you bang Duncan down low he still controls the ball, hack him on the arm, same thing. This is a big physical advantage that he has over other big men who look and probably are physically stronger.
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#14
05-24-2007, 02:34 PM
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Re: How smart is Tim Duncan?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] still though i don't think he quite measures to the old centers back in the 90s... though i haven't really looked at it closely... i still think hakeem was loads better and the admiral was also a hair better in his prime... [/ QUOTE ] This is why Duncan claims to be a 4, so he can say he's the best PF of all time (which I don't even agree with) because he wouldn't even crack the top 10 of all time centers. [/ QUOTE ] Top 10 centers according to ESPN : Years PPG RPG BPG PER Abdul-Jabbar 20 24.6 11.2 2.6 24.6 Chamberlain 14 30.1 22.9 N/A 26.2 Russell 13 15.1 22.5 N/A 18.9 O'Neal 14 26.3 11.8 2.5 27.8 Olajuwon 18 21.8 11.1 3.1 23.6 Malone 21 20.3 12.3 1.3 22.0 Walton 10 13.3 10.5 2.2 20.0 Robinson 14 21.1 10.6 3.0 26.2 Mikan 7 23.1 13.4 N/A 27.1 Ewing 17 21.0 9.8 2.4 21.0 Duncan 10 21.8 11.9 2.5 25.2 I think Duncan clearly rates above Ewing and Walton, and is arguably better than several of the others (although can be argued the other way too), so I'd say he would be a top 10 center.
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#16
05-24-2007, 02:48 PM
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Re: How smart is Tim Duncan?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] still though i don't think he quite measures to the old centers back in the 90s... though i haven't really looked at it closely... i still think hakeem was loads better and the admiral was also a hair better in his prime... [/ QUOTE ] This is why Duncan claims to be a 4, so he can say he's the best PF of all time (which I don't even agree with) because he wouldn't even crack the top 10 of all time centers. [/ QUOTE ] Top 10 centers according to ESPN : Years PPG RPG BPG PER Abdul-Jabbar 20 24.6 11.2 2.6 24.6 Chamberlain 14 30.1 22.9 N/A 26.2 Russell 13 15.1 22.5 N/A 18.9 O'Neal 14 26.3 11.8 2.5 27.8 Olajuwon 18 21.8 11.1 3.1 23.6 Malone 21 20.3 12.3 1.3 22.0 Walton 10 13.3 10.5 2.2 20.0 Robinson 14 21.1 10.6 3.0 26.2 Mikan 7 23.1 13.4 N/A 27.1 Ewing 17 21.0 9.8 2.4 21.0 Duncan 10 21.8 11.9 2.5 25.2 I think Duncan clearly rates above Ewing and Walton, and is arguably better than several of the others (although can be argued the other way too), so I'd say he would be a top 10 center. [/ QUOTE ] Isn't Duncan's stuff going to overrate himself since he's still in his near peak years and hasn't hit the downswing? I'm going to say he's top 10 but you gotta look past the numbers against retired Vets who might have played way past their peak.
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#17
05-24-2007, 02:52 PM
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Re: How smart is Tim Duncan?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] still though i don't think he quite measures to the old centers back in the 90s... though i haven't really looked at it closely... i still think hakeem was loads better and the admiral was also a hair better in his prime... [/ QUOTE ] This is why Duncan claims to be a 4, so he can say he's the best PF of all time (which I don't even agree with) because he wouldn't even crack the top 10 of all time centers. [/ QUOTE ] Top 10 centers according to ESPN : Years PPG RPG BPG PER Abdul-Jabbar 20 24.6 11.2 2.6 24.6 Chamberlain 14 30.1 22.9 N/A 26.2 Russell 13 15.1 22.5 N/A 18.9 O'Neal 14 26.3 11.8 2.5 27.8 Olajuwon 18 21.8 11.1 3.1 23.6 Malone 21 20.3 12.3 1.3 22.0 Walton 10 13.3 10.5 2.2 20.0 Robinson 14 21.1 10.6 3.0 26.2 Mikan 7 23.1 13.4 N/A 27.1 Ewing 17 21.0 9.8 2.4 21.0 Duncan 10 21.8 11.9 2.5 25.2 I think Duncan clearly rates above Ewing and Walton, and is arguably better than several of the others (although can be argued the other way too), so I'd say he would be a top 10 center. [/ QUOTE ] Isn't Duncan's stuff going to overrate himself since he's still in his near peak years and hasn't hit the downswing? I'm going to say he's top 10 but you gotta look past the numbers against retired Vets who might have played way past their peak. [/ QUOTE ] Even if he plays way too long and becomes horrible like Kareem did, he's still ahead of Robinson and Ewing for sure, and prolly Walton and Mikan too.
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#18
05-24-2007, 02:58 PM
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Re: How smart is Tim Duncan?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] still though i don't think he quite measures to the old centers back in the 90s... though i haven't really looked at it closely... i still think hakeem was loads better and the admiral was also a hair better in his prime... [/ QUOTE ] This is why Duncan claims to be a 4, so he can say he's the best PF of all time (which I don't even agree with) because he wouldn't even crack the top 10 of all time centers. [/ QUOTE ] Top 10 centers according to ESPN : Years PPG RPG BPG PER Abdul-Jabbar 20 24.6 11.2 2.6 24.6 Chamberlain 14 30.1 22.9 N/A 26.2 Russell 13 15.1 22.5 N/A 18.9 O'Neal 14 26.3 11.8 2.5 27.8 Olajuwon 18 21.8 11.1 3.1 23.6 Malone 21 20.3 12.3 1.3 22.0 Walton 10 13.3 10.5 2.2 20.0 Robinson 14 21.1 10.6 3.0 26.2 Mikan 7 23.1 13.4 N/A 27.1 Ewing 17 21.0 9.8 2.4 21.0 Duncan 10 21.8 11.9 2.5 25.2 I think Duncan clearly rates above Ewing and Walton, and is arguably better than several of the others (although can be argued the other way too), so I'd say he would be a top 10 center. [/ QUOTE ] Isn't Duncan's stuff going to overrate himself since he's still in his near peak years and hasn't hit the downswing? I'm going to say he's top 10 but you gotta look past the numbers against retired Vets who might have played way past their peak. [/ QUOTE ] Duncan has already played as many years as Walton, and 3 more than Mikan. I don't see Duncan tailing off that much before he hangs it up (i.e. if his level of play goes down much I think he would quit, and barring major injury I doubt his game goes down much in the next 4-5 years). If Shaq stays around much longer, his averages could plummet (his game has been going downhill consistently the past several years - I think Tim's fundamental soundness and much better work ethic keeps this from happening to him).
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#19
05-24-2007, 05:39 PM
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Re: How smart is Tim Duncan?
Not sure if you can use Mikan as a comparison study in this list. He played all but 1 year without a shotclock when teams would stall for all of the 3rd and 4th qtrs with a lead. Having averaged as much as he did during that era is probably something special in itself.
He was a part of that record setting 19-18 game that got the wheels moving towards the start of the shotclock. Not that one game affects his averages that much, but it is indicative of how many teams played against the Mpls Lakers.
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#20
05-24-2007, 06:37 PM
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Re: How smart is Tim Duncan?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] he's got a pretty long wingspan and he's a very good passer out of the post... offensively he's not that dominant... roughly averaging in the low 20s in his career... definate star quality but hardly the dominant 30+ppg we've seen from the likes of shaq or 25+ppg from hakeem, robinson et al.... what makes him so good... is his work on the boards as well as his defensive presence... where he lacks in jumping ability he makmes up for it with positioning and keeping his long arms up so he can quickly swipe at the ball... still though i don't think he quite measures to the old centers back in the 90s... though i haven't really looked at it closely... i still think hakeem was loads better and the admiral was also a hair better in his prime... [/ QUOTE ] Hakeem was probally better. Duncan has had such a long stay of continued success which makes him much more successful than David. He also didn't have Jordan, Malone, and Hakeem to compete with. I think Duncan is exactly what you need in a post player. He's one of the best paint defenders ever. He's not a superstar O, but much better than your average guy. He is the best overall player in the NBA in the post Jordan era, the only guy that comes very close is Shaq. Shaq would be the best by far if not for poor conditioning. Also Duncan's bball IQ is probally one of the highest ever, especially on D. He might not be super any individual metric, but he's super rediculous on the court. [/ QUOTE ] That's some great analysis by both of you guys. Spot on IMO.
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