far too common spot of trouble - Page 2

ILOVEPOKER929 · #11 05-22-2007, 08:37 PM

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Rudeboy, post the suits here b/c it makes a difference
PJ, Why would you ever want to 3 bet here?

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Nothing worthwhile is gonna come out of Rudeboy's thread becuz in the end its not gonna matter much how we react to this flop raise. These are not the spots that seperate the great players from the merely good. We are all gonna get ass-rammed in this spot no matter what line we take. Its a win small, lose big situation and no line can save us from this predicament. If I had bet the flop against an unknown I would probably call the flop raise, call the turn bet, and on the river its going to be very close between check/folding and check/calling. So close I dont think it will matter which line wwe take on the river. (This is basically the same thing DeathDonkey said) Is this the best way to play this hand? It may be, it may not be. I dont think it really matters much. The only thing I know for sure is that PJ's remarks about 3betting the flop is some of the worst advice I have seen on 2+2.

ssmallz · #12 05-22-2007, 08:38 PM

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PJ, Why would you ever want to 3 bet here? It's a WA/WB situation. If you 3 bet you blow him off his hand, if he's got a PP you make him fold when he woulda bluffed the turn and river. If he goes for a free card on the turn, not a big deal b/c the pot is small.

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I think I answered this already, but there are a lot of spots where we're WA/WB that we still want to get aggressive. Say you have KK on a board of K44xx. You're way ahead of every holding except the one combo of 44. You're way behind 44. Are you going to play meekly because he might have quads? No, you're going to keep raising until your arm falls off. The WA/WB line of losing-the-least-and-making-the-most needs to be taken when there's a relatively even chance we're WA/WB. In this pot I've decided we're ahead a lot more often than we're behind. Maybe I'm wrong.

If I'm right, though, why should I let this stain off the hook by giving him a cheap showdown with his PP? Too often I call and check the turn only to see him check behind (and the pot isn't that small, it's 5BBs even if you smoothcall the flop raise). And like I said, I have no idea why we expect him to fold a pair. When I take this line I get called down by TT. I turn over my hand and he says, "See, I *knew* you didn't have an ace" and grumbles.

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the KK4 is an extreme example we're fairly sure we're ahead there whereas here we're not so sure. I'm a lot more pessamistic about our chances than you are and I'd say we're about 50/50. Ahead of PPs, behind Ax. I don't get the same calls you do. Everytime I 3 bet and bet the rest of the way they meekly flip over AT or something and put me on AK. Either that or they call and fold the turn, either way I'm not too happy.

Entity · #13 05-22-2007, 08:42 PM

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I understand what you mean by non-exploitable but I think the mixed strategy should involve calls and folds, I don't really see any point in gassing here.

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First of all, it's a short-handed game where people will call down lightly, and at least any decent pair. So I'm not worried about him folding. I'm worried about him getting off cheaply with TT/99/77/66/98/T8. If you just call, he's checking the turn behind too often -- that's missed value as well as giving some jerk-off a free card in a pot that's already 5BBs big.

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I think the sort of player who raises the flop with any of those hands isn't calling down if you 3bet very often and certainly also isn't checking behind on the turn. In fact, I don't remember the last time I encountered a player who would raise this flop without an Ace and check behind when called, and calldown once you 3bet.

Rob

private joker · #14 05-22-2007, 08:45 PM

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The only thing I know for sure is that PJ's remarks about 3betting the flop is some of the worst advice I have seen on 2+2.

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I aim to please, Wes.

private joker · #15 05-22-2007, 08:48 PM

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I think the sort of player who raises the flop with any of those hands isn't calling down if you 3bet very often and certainly also isn't checking behind on the turn. In fact, I don't remember the last time I encountered a player who would raise this flop without an Ace and check behind when called, and calldown once you 3bet.

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The player you just described is the type of player I face every single time I play poker. I mean, clearly live full ring players are different from online short-handed players, but can the profiles be so different that it's useless to compare lines?

gaming_mouse · #16 05-22-2007, 09:15 PM

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I never 3 bet here and I rarely 3 bet AK here. I like call, check/call, check/decide probably. It's weak but you did ask for least exploitable.

-DeathDonkey

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I agree with this.... and I think joker's advice as a rule is bad. But doing that occassionally is not, because you reap meta game benefits. If villain knows you can 3b there with less than an ace he will be far less likely to bluff here in the future (if he is bluffing), and so save you from this lose/lose spot.

Also, it only costs one more SB....

private joker · #17 05-22-2007, 09:46 PM

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If villain knows you can 3b there with less than an ace he will be far less likely to bluff here in the future (if he is bluffing), and so save you from this lose/lose spot.

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But the downside is if he knows you can 3-bet with less than an A, then he'll be more likely to fastplay monsters, encouraging you to continue overplaying hands like QQ on an Axx board.

gaming_mouse · #18 05-22-2007, 09:58 PM

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If villain knows you can 3b there with less than an ace he will be far less likely to bluff here in the future (if he is bluffing), and so save you from this lose/lose spot.

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But the downside is if he knows you can 3-bet with less than an A, then he'll be more likely to fastplay monsters, encouraging you to continue overplaying hands like QQ on an Axx board.

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Sure, but monsters are far more rare than bluffing hands.

Think of it this way.... if you could have the image of 3betting QQ there without having to pay for that image, you would jump at the oppurtunity. The price you have to pay is not worth it, however, if you are doing it regularly.

Doing it occasionally against tricky opponents as a way of curbing their trickiness, though, *may* be a good thing. Though now that I think about it, a better thing may be to 3bet occassionally as a total bluff with a hand devoid of sd value.

private joker · #19 05-22-2007, 10:07 PM

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The price you have to pay is not worth it, however, if you are doing it regularly.

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Yeah actually I can only think of one time I've ever 3-bet this flop in this situation. It turned out to be correct, but I went back to the passive line anyway.

I just thought it would be fun to argue for the 3-bet line because "[censored] him he doesn't have an ace," and it turned out it was really fun, especially once the upturned-nose types came in. In fact, I may have even talked myself into it.

Oh and I agree 3-betting as a bluff would have better metagame benefits but I don't have the stones to do it.

HOWMANY · #20 05-22-2007, 11:06 PM

The last time I was in this situation was in a 15 game on Stars where it goes I raise KK, McSketch 3bets, I cap, flop like A46r. I bet he raises I call. Turn blank I c/c. River J and I randomly decide to donk and he raises and I fold.

I was pretty pleased with how I was playing it until I bet the river, at which point I was just disgusted with myself because it was so bad.

So I guess the best way to play IMO is to just call down usually unless something changes and you decide you need to fold.