KK lost all my money on this flop

[Wolfram]

Hi.

I'm gonna try and answer all your questions point by point. This might get long so bear with me.

1. Preflop
Your raise is ok. We want more money in the pot (more value for our strong hand) and we'd also like to isolate to 1-2 opponents. You achieved both. I would personally raise enough so that we can just push any flop. You shouldn't be afraid of not getting action on your big hands. Just raise the same amount for all your hands and people won't be able to tell them apart. The straddles + calls mean that there's a lot of dead money in there and you don't want to give people implied odds on their calls.

2. Your stack
In general, it is advantageous for better players to play deeper stacked since it exposes their skill advantage more. However, in some live games people will look at you funny if you keep reloading.

3. Flop play.
How much money you've "invested" is totally irrelevant. After you put the money in there, it is no longer yours. It's only yours to win.

The only thing that matters is the price you're getting and how your hand fairs against your opponents range. The pot right now is $173 and you have to call $58, but this will leave you with just $7, so we might as well assume that villain put you all in. So the pot is $180 and it's $65 to call. You are getting 2.75:1 pot odds on your call.

Now let's examine your opponents range. There is no such thing as "putting your opponent on a specific hand". We're not mind readers. Sure, we might have some clues to what our opponent is holding (given his earlier patterns), and whether he's strong or not (given physical reads), but this only allows us to limit his range of possible hands.

Given that you don't give any reads on villain, your call is pretty much automatic. Live players will make this move with a huge range, including a lot of draws (flushdraw, open ended straight or a combo-draw) Top pair, junk (two overs) and of course hands that beat you (2-pair and sets).
The frequency that you are beat in this spot is nowhere near 2.75:1 so you have to call.

If you opponent is the nittiest of nits, then maybe you can narrow his range down enough that a fold becomes correct, but you need a very solid read for this. There was just to much money put in the pot before the reraise to make a fold a profitable move in the long run. This is one of the factors of playing short stacks. You pretty much have to pick a strong hand and go with it.

[ QUOTE ]
My hand range I gave him was no less than a set or 2 pair, or nut flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]
This range is way to tight imo, but let's just go with it as an experiment:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

45,540 games 0.047 secs 968,936 games/sec

Board: Qc 8d 6c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 27.960% 27.96% 00.00% 12733 0.00 { KhKs }
Hand 1: 72.040% 72.04% 00.00% 32807 0.00 { QQ, 88, 66, AcKc, AcQc, AcJc, AcTc, Ac9c, Ac8c, Ac7c, Ac6c, Ac5c, Ac4c, Ac3c, Ac2c, Q8s, Q6s, 86s, Q8o, Q6o, 86o }


---

As you can see you have 28% equity against this range. But since youre getting such good pot odds (2.75:1) you only need to have 26.5% equity to make the call profitable.

[drj003]

It's an easy call. If you bust, then you must buy in again. If you bought in for 180, I'm guessing you aren't b rolled for a 1/2 game. Move down to where you have 15 or 20 times the buyin for the game that you are playing. You should never consider folding there. If you are ahead about 37% of the time 65-160(if the pot is this big-just an estimate-I didn't look at it long) you should call. I think you are ahead way more than 37% of the time there even though you may have lost that time.

[drj003]

I've gotta get poker stove. It just makes it too easy.

[Wolfram]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are ahead about 37% of the time 65-160(if the pot is this big-just an estimate-I didn't look at it long) you should call.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think your math is off. He has to call $65 to win $180 so he needs 65 / (180 + 65) = 0.265 equity. Meaning he needs to be ahead 26.5% of the time to make the call.

[ QUOTE ]
I've gotta get poker stove. It just makes it too easy.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's free. www.pokerstove.com

[drj003]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you are ahead about 37% of the time 65-160(if the pot is this big-just an estimate-I didn't look at it long) you should call.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think your math is off. He has to call $65 to win $180 so he needs 65 / (180 + 65) = 0.265 equity. Meaning he needs to be ahead 26.5% of the time to make the call.

[ QUOTE ]
I've gotta get poker stove. It just makes it too easy.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's free. www.pokerstove.com

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad it's free.

I didn't look at it long. I thought there was only 160 in the pot. 65 is 37% of 160.

[drj003]

woops, no it isn't. Not sure what button I pushed on my calculator.....sorry it's 40% of 160.

[drj003]

It's 36% of 180.

[drj003]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you are ahead about 37% of the time 65-160(if the pot is this big-just an estimate-I didn't look at it long) you should call.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think your math is off. He has to call $65 to win $180 so he needs 65 / (180 + 65) = 0.265 equity. Meaning he needs to be ahead 26.5% of the time to make the call.

[ QUOTE ]
I've gotta get poker stove. It just makes it too easy.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's free. www.pokerstove.com

[/ QUOTE ]

When calculating pot odds, You aren't supposed to count the money you have to call as a part of the pot. If the pot has 100 dollars in it and you have a 25% chance to win, you put in 25 and no more. You don't count the pot as being 125, it's 100. Maybe you are getting some other calculation from poker stove, but that's basic pot odds.

[Wolfram]

[ QUOTE ]
When calculating pot odds, You aren't supposed to count the money you have to call as a part of the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not calculating pot odds, I'm calculating pot equity.

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If the pot has 100 dollars in it and you have a 25% chance to win, you put in 25 and no more. You don't count the pot as being 125, it's 100.

[/ QUOTE ]
No. If you have a 25% chance to win, you are a 1:3 dog (25% vs 75%). That means you need to be getting 3:1 odds from the pot to call, not 4:1. So you can profitably call 33 into a 100 pot with 25% chance to win.

Here's another example:
Let's say I have T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on an 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] flop and my opponent accidentally shows me a pair of aces. There's $45 in the pot, and my opponent pushes all-in for his last $45.

The pot is $90 and it's $45 for me to call, giving me 2:1 pot odds. Do I make the call or not?

I have an open ended straight draw, giving me 8 outs twice. This gives me about a 34% chance to hit. According to your calculations I need 45/90 = 50% equity, but that is incorrect. Since I'm getting 2:1 on my money I only need to win the pot one-third of the times on average.

My equity needs to be bigger than 45 / (90 + 45) ~= 0.3333

For a better explanation off pot odds vs. pot equity check out Sklansky's Theory of Poker.

[drj003]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When calculating pot odds, You aren't supposed to count the money you have to call as a part of the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not calculating pot odds, I'm calculating pot equity.

[ QUOTE ]
If the pot has 100 dollars in it and you have a 25% chance to win, you put in 25 and no more. You don't count the pot as being 125, it's 100.

[/ QUOTE ]
No. If you have a 25% chance to win, you are a 1:3 dog. That means you need to be getting 3:1 odds from the pot to call, not 4:1.

Here's another example:
Let's say I have T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on an 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] flop and my opponent accidentally shows me a pair of aces. There's $45 in the pot, and my opponent pushes all-in for his last $45.

The pot is $90 and it's $45 for me to call, giving me 2:1 pot odds. Do I make the call or not?

I have an open ended straight draw, giving me 8 outs twice. This gives me about a 34% chance to hit. According to your calculations I need 45/90 = 50% equity, but that is incorrect. Since I'm getting 2:1 on my money I only need to win the pot one-third of the times on average.

My equity needs to be bigger than 45 / (90 + 45) ~= 0.3333

For a better explanation off pot odds vs. pot equity check out Sklansky's Theory of Poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm interesting. I haven't really ever learned pot equity. But surely it is correct if you are going to win a 99 dollar pot 1 out of 3 times, to call 33 dollars. Does that statement sit well with you? How does equity differ from calling a 33 dollar bet against a 99 dollar pot, with 33% chance to win?