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#11
05-22-2007, 02:29 AM
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Re: Al-Qaeda\'s biggest target? Other Muslims
BluffThis,
Imagine if a group of US citizens were accused of perpetrating some terrorist act in Japan. And then that the Japanese government demands that they be brought to justice. If our government was like the government of many of these countries, we would have no resources to find these terrorists. So then Japan says, too bad we have to kill thousands of innocent American citizens so that these terrorists are killed and brought to justice. Would you be okay with that? Would you be okay with the Japanese government imposed these restrictions on you personally? 
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#12
05-22-2007, 05:28 PM
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Re: Al-Qaeda\'s biggest target? Other Muslims
[ QUOTE ]
Also you have a very strange idea of what your enemies are trying to achieve, generally they don't carry out their activites just for the sake of it. [/ QUOTE ] Wow. So now you think we need to "understand" the terrorists and their intentions? I'll pass. bunny said: [ QUOTE ] Are you suggesting that the innocent villagers have some obligation to turn their violent neighbours in to some external government (however they are supposed to do that) even under threat of immediate retribution? [/ QUOTE ] I guess it's a radical notion to you that people are responsbile not only for their actions, but ommissions as well. But it's not to me. They are THEIR neighbors, and it's THEIR duty to do something about them, even if it involves short term risk to their lives. WE should not have to suffer for their cowardice and their focus on the short-term, nor accept such excuses when the case is often actually that they support the violent actions of the terrorists. Taraz said: [ QUOTE ] Imagine if a group of US citizens were accused of perpetrating some terrorist act in Japan. And then that the Japanese government demands that they be brought to justice. If our government was like the government of many of these countries, we would have no resources to find these terrorists. So then Japan says, too bad we have to kill thousands of innocent American citizens so that these terrorists are killed and brought to justice. Would you be okay with that? Would you be okay with the Japanese government imposed these restrictions on you personally? [/ QUOTE ] If any group of people or a government, lacks the resources to deal with their own people, then they can and should allow outsiders to do so, *and fully support them with information at the very least*. And in the case as with a dictatorship, where the country isn't going to allow outsiders in to oppose the actions of that dictatorship, those people still have an obligation to oppose their government even at the risk to their lives. After all it's THEIR country, and citizens of other countries shouldn't have to suffer because the citizens of the dictatorship can't effectively oppose their own government. The other countries are still going to have to put a stop to that dictatorship, and unfortunately, despite reasonable attemps to limit collateral damage, there will in fact be casualties of other than the leaders and soldiers of that country. And those other countries can't allow themselves to be hamstrung and suffer further casualties of their own just because of the unfortunate fact that it isn't possible to use pinpoint targeting and still be *effective*.
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#13
05-22-2007, 05:44 PM
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Re: Al-Qaeda\'s biggest target? Other Muslims
[ QUOTE ]
Wow. So now you think we need to "understand" the terrorists and their intentions? I'll pass. [/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure how this thread is on topic for Science, Math, and Philosophy, except maybe for the Philosophy or Art of War. Certainly, in the Art of War you want to understand your enemy thoroughly. His motive, intentions, tactics, strategic plans, emotions, reasoning process, sources of strong support, sources of more indifferent support, physical and sociological resources, etc. Everything and anything about what makes him tick is important in crafting the best possible plan to defeat him. PairTheBoard
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#14
05-22-2007, 05:47 PM
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Re: Al-Qaeda\'s biggest target? Other Muslims
[ QUOTE ]
Wow. So now you think we need to "understand" the terrorists and their intentions? I'll pass. [/ QUOTE ] Good thing people like you aren't running the NSA, CIA, FBI, and state department. Oh, wait...
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#15
05-22-2007, 05:54 PM
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Re: Al-Qaeda\'s biggest target? Other Muslims
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Wow. So now you think we need to "understand" the terrorists and their intentions? I'll pass. [/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure how this thread is on topic for Science, Math, and Philosophy, except maybe for the Philosophy or Art of War. Certainly, in the Art of War you want to understand your enemy thoroughly. His motive, intentions, tactics, strategic plans, emotions, reasoning process, sources of strong support, sources of more indifferent support, physical and sociological resources, etc. Everything and anything about what makes him tick is important in crafting the best possible plan to defeat him. PairTheBoard [/ QUOTE ] PTB, That is obviously correct in the need to understand one's enemy *for the purpose of defeating him*. That is not however the purpose of "understanding" him that others often mean, where they just want to provide an excuse to appease terrorists and dictators instead of suffering the necessary short-term casualties and sacrifices to defeat them.
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#16
05-22-2007, 06:04 PM
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Re: Al-Qaeda\'s biggest target? Other Muslims
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Wow. So now you think we need to "understand" the terrorists and their intentions? I'll pass. [/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure how this thread is on topic for Science, Math, and Philosophy, except maybe for the Philosophy or Art of War. Certainly, in the Art of War you want to understand your enemy thoroughly. His motive, intentions, tactics, strategic plans, emotions, reasoning process, sources of strong support, sources of more indifferent support, physical and sociological resources, etc. Everything and anything about what makes him tick is important in crafting the best possible plan to defeat him. PairTheBoard [/ QUOTE ] PTB, That is obviously correct in the need to understand one's enemy *for the purpose of defeating him*. That is not however the purpose of "understanding" him that others often mean, where they just want to provide an excuse to appease terrorists and dictators instead of suffering the necessary short-term casualties and sacrifices to defeat them. [/ QUOTE ] Apparently you don't want to understand them enough to defeat them either. It is clear that you have no idea why these terrorist attacks are occurring other than some nebulous idea about how "they hate our freedom".
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#17
05-22-2007, 06:14 PM
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Re: Al-Qaeda\'s biggest target? Other Muslims
[ QUOTE ]
If any group of people or a government, lacks the resources to deal with their own people, then they can and should allow outsiders to do so, *and fully support them with information at the very least*. And in the case as with a dictatorship, where the country isn't going to allow outsiders in to oppose the actions of that dictatorship, those people still have an obligation to oppose their government even at the risk to their lives. After all it's THEIR country, and citizens of other countries shouldn't have to suffer because the citizens of the dictatorship can't effectively oppose their own government. The other countries are still going to have to put a stop to that dictatorship, and unfortunately, despite reasonable attemps to limit collateral damage, there will in fact be casualties of other than the leaders and soldiers of that country. And those other countries can't allow themselves to be hamstrung and suffer further casualties of their own just because of the unfortunate fact that it isn't possible to use pinpoint targeting and still be *effective*. [/ QUOTE ] First of all, you're basically saying an American life is worth more than an Iraqi life. How many dead Iraqi civilians do you need before it's not worth it? Second, do you not realize that revolution takes time? And that our actions our actually hurting many of these revolutions? Look at Iran. There is an enormous tide of discontent within Iranian youth over the ruling parties. The country is on the brink of a revolution. But when we go around calling Islam a violent religion, invade a country without any international support, and say that Iran is part of the axis of evil, we don't win any allies among these revolutionaries. They think we're about to invade their lands. People of the region look at the situation and say, "well, we're sure as hell not with you guys . . ."
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#18
05-22-2007, 07:08 PM
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Re: Al-Qaeda\'s biggest target? Other Muslims
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Wow. So now you think we need to "understand" the terrorists and their intentions? I'll pass. [/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure how this thread is on topic for Science, Math, and Philosophy, except maybe for the Philosophy or Art of War. Certainly, in the Art of War you want to understand your enemy thoroughly. His motive, intentions, tactics, strategic plans, emotions, reasoning process, sources of strong support, sources of more indifferent support, physical and sociological resources, etc. Everything and anything about what makes him tick is important in crafting the best possible plan to defeat him. PairTheBoard [/ QUOTE ] PTB, That is obviously correct in the need to understand one's enemy *for the purpose of defeating him*. That is not however the purpose of "understanding" him that others often mean, where they just want to provide an excuse to appease terrorists and dictators instead of suffering the necessary short-term casualties and sacrifices to defeat them. [/ QUOTE ] No-one looking for an excuse to appease anyone in this thread. Its a pure strawman on your part - maybe just a lack of understanding [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] chez
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#19
05-22-2007, 07:16 PM
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Re: Al-Qaeda\'s biggest target? Other Muslims
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Wow. So now you think we need to "understand" the terrorists and their intentions? I'll pass. [/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure how this thread is on topic for Science, Math, and Philosophy, except maybe for the Philosophy or Art of War. Certainly, in the Art of War you want to understand your enemy thoroughly. His motive, intentions, tactics, strategic plans, emotions, reasoning process, sources of strong support, sources of more indifferent support, physical and sociological resources, etc. Everything and anything about what makes him tick is important in crafting the best possible plan to defeat him. PairTheBoard [/ QUOTE ] PTB, That is obviously correct in the need to understand one's enemy *for the purpose of defeating him*. That is not however the purpose of "understanding" him that others often mean, where they just want to provide an excuse to appease terrorists and dictators instead of suffering the necessary short-term casualties and sacrifices to defeat them. [/ QUOTE ] This is all wrong, at least as it pertains to pretty much everyone who has posted in this thread.
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#20
05-22-2007, 07:19 PM
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Re: Al-Qaeda\'s biggest target? Other Muslims
[ QUOTE ]
I guess it's a radical notion to you that people are responsbile not only for their actions, but ommissions as well. But it's not to me. They are THEIR neighbors, and it's THEIR duty to do something about them, even if it involves short term risk to their lives. WE should not have to suffer for their cowardice and their focus on the short-term, nor accept such excuses when the case is often actually that they support the violent actions of the terrorists. [/ QUOTE ] There's no rational here for acting in the way that furthers your enemies cause. Exactly what is your objective? chez
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