marginal hand

[MacGuyV]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree. I think hero leading into a 5-way pot on this board shows a lot of strength. what does hero lead into the multiway pot with that villain raises lightly?

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Fair point. It's hard to get inside of a 37/13/1.9 player's head because there aren't very many of them around these days so my answer is "I don't know". My guess is that he's neither retarded or good & is thinking more about his hand & HU status with positional advantage than hero's betting range on the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
getting 8 to 1 to a chopped pot w/ an optimistic 4 outs does not justify a call IMHO.

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4 chop outs = AT. That's only optimistic if you think Kx is more likely than AT. IMO that's actually very pessimistic. I've never played FT but I've never lost $ assuming nobody has a K here.

[noob_sauce]

yeah, good points. we have 8 chop outs chop to QT, 12 to JT etc...

both options suck, just a matter of which one sucks less [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[milesdyson]

i dont understand how you can account for chop outs here. are you check calling a turn A/Q/J?

[noob_sauce]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont understand how you can account for chop outs here. are you check calling a turn A/Q/J?

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I assumed thats what he meant.

I miscalculated the chop outs to a better ten for some reason only intitially factoring in AT and a K.

I obviously can't speak for him, but i took his argument to be that these chop outs to a better ten gave us the odds to call the flop raise and check/call down if the AJQ hit.

one thing about this that i didn't think about was if villain is on the semibluff they improve his hand and we are now calling down.

still think the fold is correct.

[MacGuyV]

I'm not disputing that it's a fold if he turns over a better hand face up...only mentioned the hands that beat us on the flop for argument's sake; I also think the hands Guru mentioned are in is range; hell can't he have a worse sooted T too?

[TheWunderkind]

I think this is 22-99 Q9 etc like never...it is weahter a T> most likely a K or QJ...id fold on the FLop..if i have something of a read i might calldown

I think what leader said is the best line here

[rzk]

[ QUOTE ]
I usually check this flop and see what happens. If it looks like I'll be able to knock people out when it comes back to me, I c/r. If I get 3-bet, I just give up. If it checks through, I lead a 2-T. If BB/UTG leads out and gets a bunch of callers, I'd just call. Maybe donk a good turn if I'm confident I can fold to a raise.

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i must be missing some important concept, but i don't understand why we'd call if BB/UTG leads out and gets a bunch of callers (at least one of whom probably has me beat) yet we fold to a raise when a single aggressive opponent remains (who i thought could easily be semi-bluffing and not believing i have a king).