Nation's Modship

[MyTurn2Raise]

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I think there a couple issues at hand, first nation has taken an extremely dismissive attitude towards the whole issue. Given the information from the bot thread I think its completely fair for people to entertain the idea that bots are a possible explanation to the situation on some level. Why is nation so opposed to letting people discuss the idea that its possible?

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Nation had first hand knowledge of the group and wanted to rest fears that they were bots. He's talked with them. He's seen them play. It's bad whenever players hear of bots. It was nice of him to share his first-hand knowledge, which he didn't have to do. He is now being dragged through mud for it.


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Another thing is the issue of creating a team to consistently work together using a specific strategy and constant supervision and discussion during actual play. I wouldnt go as far as to say its unethical but I believe it goes against what 2p2 stands for as a community. I believe as a community we standard for thinking about poker not coming up with a simple strategy that will break even and nation has admitted he wanted to stake a member of the group. Is this really the kind of behavior we want the mod of a strategy forum condoning? Its surely not something I want and not the kind of behavior that someone who represents 2p2 should partake in. Nation is free to have his own opinions and ideas but if we dont condone them as community he should not represent us. The creation of teams of players to work over poker rooms is clearly bad for poker and one of our mods is condoning this practice, thats not someone I want representing me as a 2p2 mod.

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simple strategy--you didn't read the guide to beating low buyin Party SNGs back in the day apparently

teams--goto the IRC channels, find out about skype, see the AIM convos going back and forth-- most all your 2p2 winners are involved in this kind of activity, not as blatant as all sitting in a room together all day, but loosely 'teams' fo sho.

[cwar]

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[ QUOTE ]
I think there a couple issues at hand, first nation has taken an extremely dismissive attitude towards the whole issue. Given the information from the bot thread I think its completely fair for people to entertain the idea that bots are a possible explanation to the situation on some level. Why is nation so opposed to letting people discuss the idea that its possible?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nation had first hand knowledge of the group and wanted to rest fears that they were bots. He's talked with them. He's seen them play. It's bad whenever players hear of bots. It was nice of him to share his first-hand knowledge, which he didn't have to do. He is now being dragged through mud for it.


[ QUOTE ]

Another thing is the issue of creating a team to consistently work together using a specific strategy and constant supervision and discussion during actual play. I wouldnt go as far as to say its unethical but I believe it goes against what 2p2 stands for as a community. I believe as a community we standard for thinking about poker not coming up with a simple strategy that will break even and nation has admitted he wanted to stake a member of the group. Is this really the kind of behavior we want the mod of a strategy forum condoning? Its surely not something I want and not the kind of behavior that someone who represents 2p2 should partake in. Nation is free to have his own opinions and ideas but if we dont condone them as community he should not represent us. The creation of teams of players to work over poker rooms is clearly bad for poker and one of our mods is condoning this practice, thats not someone I want representing me as a 2p2 mod.

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simple strategy--you didn't read the guide to beating low buyin Party SNGs back in the day apparently

teams--goto the IRC channels, find out about skype, see the AIM convos going back and forth-- most all your 2p2 winners are involved in this kind of activity, not as blatant as all sitting in a room together all day, but loosely 'teams' fo sho.

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You dont see a difference between what is going on based on the information in the bot thread and what most 2p2 partake (I do also).

[TIEdup14]

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teams--goto the IRC channels, find out about skype, see the AIM convos going back and forth-- most all your 2p2 winners are involved in this kind of activity, not as blatant as all sitting in a room together all day, but loosely 'teams' fo sho.

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Myturn2raise,

We can extrapolate this issue as far out as we want. Nation, for example, chose to extrapolate out as far as to say that using pokertracker is also unethical.

I dont particulary feel that this or your analogy is appropriate here.

This is pretty cut and dry:

1) 4 players sitting in a room having more than one person to a hand is unethical in poker.
2) nation openly supports the above statement as "ethical" (or at the very least not unethical)
3) nation should not be a mod representing 2p2 if he feels this way.


We can get into the ethics of coaching, pokerhud, and pokertracker any other day.

[MyTurn2Raise]

my understanding has been that 2p2 has always followed the ethics of the individual site T&Cs...looks like nation is doing the same.

If the continued approval of site T&Cs is the question at hand, I understand. However, Nation's modship shouldn't be questioned over this issue. He is in agreement with the rulemakers (the online sites) and the precedent of 2p2.

[TIEdup14]

I dont understand why this isnt clear to everyone else... please, point out what part of what I'm saying is incorrect:

1) In a live game, sweating is allowed. (watching, not saying anything during the hand/action/game)
2) In a live game, actively giving advice to another player on how to play a hand during the hand is NOT allowed.
3) Not only is [premise 2] not allowed, it is UNIVERSALLY accepted as "unethical poker."
4) I posit that this is a UNIVERSAL poker ethic, and the same rules should apply online as in live play.

Guys, I understand that online =/= live. But there are basic rules and ethics of poker that must be followed, regardless of whether or not it is possible to break them online.

Entering a MTT with multiple accounts is universally unethical, live or online. Why isnt "multiple players to a hand" treated the same way?

Because you can get away with it?

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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my understanding has been that 2p2 has always followed the ethics of the individual site T&Cs...looks like nation is doing the same.

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I think this is a very low level of ambition for a poker community. I think the thread in question and others show that most 2+2'ers want the bar to be put higher. Thus they get annoyed by somebody like Nation being a mod. It is not really reason for a demodding-punishment, but it is enough that the admins should start looking for a mod that would be more accepted by the users.

[stabn]

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teams--goto the IRC channels, find out about skype, see the AIM convos going back and forth-- most all your 2p2 winners are involved in this kind of activity, not as blatant as all sitting in a room together all day, but loosely 'teams' fo sho.

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Myturn2raise,

We can extrapolate this issue as far out as we want. Nation, for example, chose to extrapolate out as far as to say that using pokertracker is also unethical.

I dont particulary feel that this or your analogy is appropriate here.

This is pretty cut and dry:

1) 4 players sitting in a room having more than one person to a hand is unethical in poker.
2) nation openly supports the above statement as "ethical" (or at the very least not unethical)
3) nation should not be a mod representing 2p2 if he feels this way.


We can get into the ethics of coaching, pokerhud, and pokertracker any other day.

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I was thinking to myself who would be so naive as to think the world works in such a way that nations modship being removed is 'pretty cut and dry' in this case. Looking into the situation further i searched your post count and found the answer.



Politics posters are whack yo.

[Phil153]

The case in your OP isn't very strong. You can't demod someone for stating that a commonly accepted practice is ethical.

But I think it's very likely nation is either lying or overstating his knowledge to cover for a friend in a tough spot. Especially since he was caught saying:

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Chuck is a good guy, and to be honest, doesn't even know how to configure his virus protection; I had to do it for him.

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When the guy has been discussing and fixing AHK auto click scripts on these very forums...

[KotOD]

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Chuck is a good guy, and to be honest, doesn't even know how to configure his virus protection; I had to do it for him.

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nation implies that Chuck is too computer illiterate to program a bot by saying the above.

But he's bright enough to install, program and update hotkey scripts:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post8932154

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post8988150

Note that nation was involved in other hotkey programming questions ans script threads with Chuck. nation isn't directly lying to mislead people, but his truthiness is approaching zero here.

Are mods allowed to run smokescreens to cover for friends?

[TIEdup14]

Citanul,

First off, thank you for sharing your opinion.

Basically, you are saying that multiple players to a hand is ok online, but not ok live-- is this correct?

Also, I'd like to hear more people (specifically non-mods) chime in.

Thanks again,
TIE

Edit: added a question