Discussion: Defending the Button

[Choparno]

This is really interesting. I actually watched that I_Strong video for the first time a few days ago in which he mentioned the concept of defending your button. I've never heard anyone talk about defending your button before (is this just something he came up with? is it talked about anywhere else?) and it's had me thinking about my button play since.

Basically I've been playing 15/11 for quite a while, which from what others have said is apparently considered super nitty, so I'm trying to work towards playing a more 20/15 style largely by playing more hands in position and raising limpers on the button with a wider range. The idea of "defending your button" has helped with this - that you should make people afraid to limp in when you have position.

The ultimate purpose of doing this (being seen to have a wide raising range in position) is, I assume, to get paid off more on your big hands, or when you hit the flop really solidly. I have found this puts more pressure on me post-flop, as people play back at your c-bets more and also start 3-betting lighter. In the big picture, however, I guess this is what we want when we have position.

Anyway, a question: When we 3-bet a LAG opener from the CO with T9s, are we hoping that he folds PF or do we want him to call and play a big pot with this hand in position? I'm a little confused about this. If 3-betting results in the CO opener folding a lot, aren't we wasting the flop value of this hand?

Am I right in thinking it is much better to 3-bet hands like AQ, for example, because the flop value is minimal (either an A or a Q flops and villain realizes he's beaten, or else he holds AK/KK and may have as crushed) compared to a much more disguised hand like T9s?

[The White Rabbit]

[ QUOTE ]
"I'm gonna fold. Some players could argue 'you have to defend your blinds!' but this isn't a tournament. In a cash game, defend your button."

[/ QUOTE ]
This is really way off. "Defending your blinds" refers to defending the equity your live money has in the pot and is as important in cash games as in the early stages of a tournament.

OTB you're not forced to put any money in the pot at all, consequently there's nothing gained by "stealing the button"* and hence no need to "defend your button". Off course you can play a wider range profitably OTB than UTG, but that bears no relevance to this discussion.

* off course CO's range gains value when he opens and the button folds, but this value doesn't come from the button, it comes from the blinds!

[orange]

interesting post. i think that dan bright's post (or at least part of it) sortve correlates to this one- the real blinds are the button and CO, not the $ you put in. worth a read. i dont really agree much with his super high raising amt given super deep stacks as much but...whatever.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...p;vc=1&nt=2

[cakewalk]

i think "defending the button" is more a testament in positional value gained post flop than tangible $ value immediately based on ranges etc.

[Kermit]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I fold there alot. I think it's right to fold there alot, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[Grunch]

There is indeed something to be gained by 'defending' your button: positional advantage. Positional advantage translates directly in to money. The button is where you make the most money by far, and the reason is not because you get better hands in the button. The reason is you get better position in the button. Having position gives you the ability to control the size of the pot (in both directions) and gives you the benefit of hindsight before you have to act. The better you know your opponent, the more effectively you can leverage your positional advantage.

T9s in particular is a hand I won't coldcall with here, but I will often with a hand like 87s or decent 1-pair type hands. Actually, there's a fairly strong correlation between the hands I'll 3b with in the blinds and the hands I'll coldcall with on the bn.

[74o_Clownsuit]

[ QUOTE ]
to the guy said he'd rather call a nit's raise with 72o then KJo:
that is fucked up dude. you'd rather not call the raise with either, but KJ has less of a neg EV then 72.

I think you also said folding is out of the question OTB w/ T9d vs a LAG. Well, I fold there alot. I think it's right to fold there alot, too.

[/ QUOTE ]
Um I never claimed that I would rather cold call with 72o (and I never do in practice). I'm just trying to look at different viewpoints and get people to actually explain their thought processes when they post.

Speaking of which, what's your reasoning with folding the T9d against co lag open? I'm interested. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[BombayBadboy]

Bobbo,

I think SSNL is very curious after your thoughts to why u would fold there vs. a LAG.

As for the examples:

The KJ hand I would fold all day every day vs. a nit. I feel I can't rely on my postflop play that much yet. Paying to much when I just flop a pair is always a threat for me. I would call with a nector though, planning to also float the right flops.

Second example, I'd raise most of the time.

[The White Rabbit]

well, I assume he just figures T9s doesn't have positive expectation against a LAG opener with a well balanced strategy (if villain is in some way terrible, it's an entire different story). However, you have to play it at least some % of the time to avoid being easily exploitable on certain flops (as such, while being -EV in itself, it increases the value of your entire distribution).

[ QUOTE ]
interesting post. i think that dan bright's post (or at least part of it) sortve correlates to this one- the real blinds are the button and CO, not the $ you put in. worth a read. i dont really agree much with his super high raising amt given super deep stacks as much but...whatever.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...p;vc=1&nt=2

[/ QUOTE ]
WOW, most of this post is very, very wrong. I'm too [censored] wasted to elaborate right now, but I assume MSNL has enough smart ppl so that that it already has been raped apart.

[orange]

white,
i agree that the stuff on raising larger pf due to stacks is a bit meh. but did you read the part about the button being the real blind and the real thing we should fight for?