Ace high call down

[yourface]

I don't like it this is a super dry flop he likely has something unless he is a total spaz. flop+turn good though you have 7 outs most of the time on the turn and even 10 sometimes.

actually if he is opening really wide there are a lot of straight draws in his range 67 68 78 which may fire an ill advised desperation bluff. if he will open those hands you should call the river IMO.

[Romulet]

When I played Full Tilt and called in this spot they always had it. Even the LAG's are tight on there. If the villan was a real loose goose and had regularly fired 3 bets with nothing of course I'd look him up.

[thepizzlefosho]

I think a call down is fine, except that you 3-bet preflop. His line is screwey, but I would need a note that says I should be calling down when he donks to c-c-c.

The problem here is that you probably picked up enough outs on the turn to call if you assume that you've got As, 3s, and give you like 1 out for the 6 (7 outs). You are getting about 6-1 and if you assume that you make a bet on the river then the turn is probably a call (plus he might give up a bluff and you could check behind w/ A-high).

Once you've gotten to the river its hard to fold to LAG so I probably make the call to.

ok I just rambled for three-paragraphs and the only thing I can say is that I probably wouldn't 3-bang pf against a LAG, and after calling his pf raise I would raise a lot of flops.

[jt1]

No one has mentioned that Hero has a b/d sd, b/d fd, one over and possibly two. The turn gives me 4 more outs and by the time I'm on the river, well it's only one more bet.

yourface makes a good point that the board is dry.

[aargh57]

Playing On FT 3/6 all last month there were guys that were biiig LAGs that loved to donk with just about anything but would sometimes fold to a raise. With these guys I'd sometimes take a similar line as OP but I wouldn't 3 bet pf with this. In cases where you do have a read that a guy will bet with schlock, how often should we call them down with just A high? Do we need a piece of the board or do we contest on a ragged rainbow board. Say we raise on the button w Ax and get no piece of a Q96 board and are donked into by a guy that we've seen donk with nothing and c-bet to the river. How often do we continue here?

I ask because now I switched to UB and I find I have to play a lot more HU and 3 handed so I need to get better at when to call down with A high. (Also need to get better at it regardless.)

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
Playing On FT 3/6 all last month there were guys that were biiig LAGs that loved to donk with just about anything but would sometimes fold to a raise. With these guys I'd sometimes take a similar line as OP but I wouldn't 3 bet pf with this. In cases where you do have a read that a guy will bet with schlock, how often should we call them down with just A high? Do we need a piece of the board or do we contest on a ragged rainbow board. Say we raise on the button w Ax and get no piece of a Q96 board and are donked into by a guy that we've seen donk with nothing and c-bet to the river. How often do we continue here?

I ask because now I switched to UB and I find I have to play a lot more HU and 3 handed so I need to get better at when to call down with A high. (Also need to get better at it regardless.)


[/ QUOTE ]


I always follow yourface's logic regarding b/d and gutshot outs as well as possible over outs. He also made a good point about the dryness of the board for villain.

[thepizzlefosho]

so by yourfaces logic we have outs to call the turn, but because of the dry board it is unlikely the villain is bluffing and we should fold river UI'ed?

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
so by yourfaces logic we have outs to call the turn, but because of the dry board it is unlikely the villain is bluffing and we should fold river UI'ed?


[/ QUOTE ]

Just to be super specific because most replys missed it, we have odds to call flop. On the turn we lost 3 outs but gained 4 for a total of 7, which gives us incorrect odds to call the turn. So in order to call the turn, you have to be sure that you are ahead 2% of the time and villain won't bet river if he's behind. Now poker is never that neat and tidy: Quite often, if not most of the time, villain will also bet river even if behind so if you are going to call without odds on the turn it better be because you think you can win a SD enough UI.* So the turn should only be called if Hero thinks he is ahead about 11% of the time. Hero is getting 3-1 on a call down and will improve about 14% so he needs to win UI 11%.

yourface's post was right on, imo because it shows how two different aspects of poker theory are competing against each other. Because the board is dry, it's less likely that villain is bluffing. But because you have outs, villain doesn't have to be bluffing as much. From there it's a judgement call.

*if Hero thinks he is ahead more than 2% of the time but less than 11% of the time and thinks that villain will check river when behind at least 2% of the time than Hero can call turn and fold river. This reasoning is probably too much to expect from all but the MIT types, or at the least, it probably takes many years before being able to do this at the table.

[thepizzlefosho]

I guess I fully understand the arguments and logic employed, I'm just wondering what I do when I'm sitting there and the timer is ticking down and these competing things are weighing in my mind.

I guess the two kind of cancel out and make a turn call reasonable, but the river....eh I don't know.

great post, and reinforced what I was trying to get out of the thread. Even if I can't always employ this stuff on the spot I think having it in the subconcious can only help my game.

[Apanage]

I think your line is OK. However i´m a raiser. I raise flop or turn about half the time. And calls down the rest

I think that we must not forget that LAG:s hate raises too. They also like to donk air and mediocre holdings.
They must frequently be punished for donking.If he is an Uberlag then I like calling down everytime but If he is an ordinary LAG then I like to raise somewhere once in a while.