Stealing against loose BB

[511 Peas]

Hola, Gents.

Been runnin' a bunch of hands through poker stove thinking about this discussion, but have a question:

When considering to limp (if I'm sure BB and SB would call a raise, and also NOT raise if I limp) and running hands, 108os+, 98os+, 107s+ (the hands AARGH57 was mentioning in previous posts) seem to have value with position when I calculate it it in POKER STOVE using "enumarate all" method.

Is poker stove correctly taking position into account when I'm running these situations, or have I done it wrong?

[jt1]

It depends whether or not he raises alot. If he's passive you can raises anything that has about 48% equity value and bet both flop and turn in position. If he's aggro, you can do that with K9o,A2o, K2s, A2s and all the high suited connectors. Otherwise, you fold.

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
if I'm sure BB and SB would call a raise, and also NOT raise if I limp

[/ QUOTE ]

I would think so. You can play most hands if he's passive enough. But there is a floor on how low you can go because SB is still in the hand.

[Gurravasa]

I think limping with weak hands and raising with stronger gives opponent too much information. If I decide to play against this opponent in stealing position, I would raise every hand I play. Then he can't know the strenght of my starting hand. If you consider to limp, you must also limp with some strong holdings, but I don't think there's any reason to complicate things like that...

[Bruce D]

OP, against the player you describe, I am playing about 60% of my hands from the small blind and going to play according to their strength. If I miss a flop with a hand that can show down, then I will showdown as cheap as possible. That includes Ax and Kx. I will continue to play my strong hands strong. If this person is truly playing 100 of their big blinds and applying constant pressure, then he is not paying attention to your game. You can play straight forward agaist this person and gain value when you hit, or when he goes to show down with his Q2o and you have A high. Being out of position is disadvantageous, because he will get to value bet his little pairs when you have nothing.

You must carefully watch his river play and understand what he will bet there.

In a nutshell, I do a lot of check calling against these types, and a lot of b/3betting when I have a strong hand. They never believe you when you have a set or an overpair and you will more than make up for your position with this aggression.

[511 Peas]

GVasa-

I understand completely your statement and reasoning so as NOT to limp, but does this inslude .5/1 and 1/2 6max games where there really are more than a few players who call EVERY raise in the BB (and some in SB)?

Your statement to raise without question is sound, but it would seem to be more at home in 2/4 and higher 6-max games where most opponents have some clue. Really, play on Bodog- a good 25-35% of 1/2 and lower 6max players there call ABSOULTELY every raise from the BB.

If this was the case, would you ever consider limping (if you're sure that SB would complete every time, and SB/BB would never raise)?

I was babbling about this a few lines up and running Poker Stove numbers showing that against loose-passives, limping from the button with hands like 98os, 108os, and 107s showed substantial value (more than 6.5% equity using "enumerate all" method of calculation which I beleive takes position into account) 3-way. Again, this is if a raise would be called by BB anyway, and if you limp the SB will always complete, and neither will EVER raise.

What are your thoughts?

~The Pea (a noob- so if any of my post is ridiculous, please tell me so and I'll shut up [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] )

[Gurravasa]

In my opinion raising for value is the most important issue when playing 1/2 and lower. I play a lot of loose games where BB calls almost every raise and I never limp from steal position against thoose players. I raise hands that I believe I can raise for value since i know I'll get called. Marginal hands I fold since I don't think their worth playing without the possibility of stealing the blinds.

At very loose tables with a lot of multiway-action I could limp some multiway-hands from UTG or MP but really that don't happen to often. If you hesitate to raise from stealing-position against a loose BB your hand is probably to weak or you're uncertain how to play against him postflop. If it's the latter you should strongly consider to change table...

[TheWunderkind]

I wouldnt adjust greatly vs him > still riase your normal range > if you feel you could pla ymore hands then you should propably open your btn range anyway. If the sb is a 85% type defender then i would maybe add down to K4o K3s Q6o some offsuited one gappers like 68o...but keep and eye on the sb if hes loose then tighten up> i dont like the limping > if the sb is VERY loose you could limp A6o for example first in otB but under normal circumstances you just raise it up

[rzk]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldnt adjust greatly vs him > still riase your normal range > if you feel you could pla ymore hands then you should propably open your btn range anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

i have a slightly different take. maybe to the first approximation you should still play the same hands, but you definitely should change some raises to limps. raise with hands that prefer heads-up (i.e. showdownable hands = hands with reverse implied odds = e.g. A, K high, pairs), limp with those that don't mind more players (i.e. hands that need to hit to win = hands with positive implied odds = e.g. suited connectors). the next approximation would be to expand your raising range slightly to account for BB's non-optimal play postflop (he's too loose on the flop).