QKs heads up

[BigBadBabar]

i just feel like given the flop play a turn check looks very suspicious and 'unnatural' if that makes any sense in context. i wouldn't mind c/c the flop and c/c the turn or c/c and c/r as an alternate line; thoughts?

[milesdyson]

Check calling the flop is good. I usually do that since so many people force you to bet the turn to fold out their underpair. So while you don't win UI, you often get a free card just because they fear you check called the flop with an ace.

I never c/c, c/r because of the same reasoning. Villain's hand range changes when he bets the turn, and he won't fold enough to warrant a big street semibluff. The play is much different from a flop semibluff because your equity is way lower and the price is way higher.

[aK13]

Did you check/raise flop suspecting he lays down KK/QQ/JJ/TT on the flop? Can't see any other reason to do it.

Or on the turn? If your suspicion is he can let go, fire turn. If you think his flop call means he's going showdown, check turn.

[milesdyson]

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Or on the turn? If your suspicion is he can let go, fire turn. If you think his flop call means he's going showdown, check turn.

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Why would you bet the turn if he's going to fold his underpairs now that we beat them? And then why check if he's going to show them down? Did you miss we turned a Q?

[aK13]

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Or on the turn? If your suspicion is he can let go, fire turn. If you think his flop call means he's going showdown, check turn.

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Why would you bet the turn if he's going to fold his underpairs now that we beat them? And then why check if he's going to show them down? Did you miss we turned a Q?

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Sorry, was justifying the flop check/raise, under a typical condition we don't spike a pair on the turn.

I think turn check is easy, just overlooked mentioning it.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

it depends on what he'll peel the flop with. given the board there is not much he can be peeling with that you can feel particularly comfortable with on the turn. it would suck to get pounded on this turn if he has an ace and pretty uneventful if he ended up peeling with an underpair that he is going to fold anyways.

there are some opponents where it would be correct to just keep on betting because it is so likely that you actually have the best hand and will get paid off despite the board. against others you are just charging yourself to draw by betting and sometimes end up paying two bets on the turn with the worst of it big draw or not. the better your opponent and the less comfortable you are with him in the time being i would go ahead and opt for the latter and check it to him.

if he bets the turn. i would call and see what happens on the river. still more, in this spot if i don't improve i could either bet for value if i feel like i have a showdownable hand, fold if i think he would only fire again with an better hand, or call if i think he would valuebluff the river with a worse hand. the range of action i do here varies a lot on the player and my read on him and the dynamic, though if i had to guess it would most likely be check and fold unimproved.

if the turn goes check and check. i would value bet just about any river.

[Bruce D]

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FWIW, this guy can lay down a hand like two 8's if I bet this turn....

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I am not sure what to do with this information. Are you saying, check because a bet will accomplish nothing? It wins you the pot and you don't offer infinite odds. You want to win the pot. If you check and he bets OR c/r a non-heart river, you have a hard decision.

You don't want 88-JJ to fold, but you risk losing the pot. I suppose the times you lose the pot when you check and lose on the river will be more than compensated for when the times when you win. ie when he fills his set up with a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on the river. I can only see those as the times he pays you off when you check the turn and bet a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] river.

[whoshotfirst]

Considering the information you provided I would check the turn, and c/f the river if I don't improve. I'm not sure though because I don't really know what range you mean by "a hand like two 8's".

Edit: River c/f means if he bets the turn, of course. I bet the river if he checks behind on the turn.

[cold_cash]

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Did you check/raise flop suspecting he lays down KK/QQ/JJ/TT on the flop? Can't see any other reason to do it.

Or on the turn? If your suspicion is he can let go, fire turn. If you think his flop call means he's going showdown, check turn.

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I checkraised the flop because I know he could have a ton of better hands that don't include an Ace that he will either fold immediately or take one off and then fold on the turn if I bet again. It's a long way to a showdown with 88/99/TT, etc., on an Ace high board.

I was planning on betting the turn until I actually made a hand, because I think any preflop 3-betting hand he could have containing an Ace would go 3-bets on the flop also. Even big ones. (AA) In other words once I turned the Queen I figured the only hand he could have that beats me is two Kings. At that point I wanted to figure out the best way to squeeze one more bet out of him.

[cold_cash]

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Bet. What else? Your flop 3bet made it clear that you (a) don't believe him holding an ace or (b) don't care.

If he doesn't have an ace, you're unlikely to get c/r again, and if you don't care - well, then don't. You do have massive outs if behind and have a good chance of being good already.

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This was the exact thing. I know that I'm winning pretty much always; what's the best way to earn another bet though?

Should I check and let him have a free card with a two-outer with the hopes that he'll call on the river after I check the turn? Do I check twice and hope he bets on the end with an underpair? Should I bet and let him make a good fold 95% of the time?