KK big pot

[bernie]

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I hate it. Capping preflop and checking the flop is weak IMO. 4 players have already checked, fire away. Granted this isn't a great flop for KK but your probably still ahead. Giving a free card here is terrible. Try to clear the field a bit and hope you get the button on the turn which would be helpfull.

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What hands are you really going to clear out for 1 bet on the flop?

b

[ProfessorBen]

I don't like the flop check.

To everyone who's advocating a turn raise: There's no guarantee we'll get a raise or a favorable raise that will allow us to clear the field. We bet this flop for the same reason that we lead flops multiway when there is no PFR(because there is no guarantee we'll be able to C/R).

If anything, the button being solid pushes for a bet even more as he may be nice enough to raise with overs or QQ/JJ and help us out(too bad if he has AA).

As played, the 3-bet is excellent.

[Christian_Peters]

I love the way this hand was played. I think this is a work of art.

[Christian_Peters]

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plus some goof might decide to CR with a hand like 99 on the flop and then you might get protection anyways.


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Guess what? A c/r will not protect our hand in a pot this huge.

[HoneyBadger]

You can never protect against a flush or straight draw anyhow; a flush draw can call 4 cold on the turn easily, so can a good straight in principle, altough the flush is less risky. A good rule of thumb is to never fold a flush draw.

I find there's a common misconception about giving odds to draw: it's not a mistake. While it's true they are correct to call, you are still the one making most money. You are likely giving up quite a lot on the flop here, for the event that on the turn you can exactly raise in good position and face precisely a gutshot with 2 or more cold that would've hit his gutshot on the river -- but obviously not the turn. That sounds like a rather steep price to me.

And guess what; it was all in vain. Suppose BB folds, SB can expect the pot to be 24 BB if he calls, as all the others get plenty of odds when he does. On the river he can probably expect 4BB more, for a total of 28 BB. He needs to call 2 more, so he's getting 1:14, enough to call a 4 outer.

[Harv72b]

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I find there's a common misconception about giving odds to draw: it's not a mistake. While it's true they are correct to call, you are still the one making most money. You are likely giving up quite a lot on the flop here, for the event that on the turn you can exactly raise in good position and face precisely a gutshot with 2 or more cold that would've hit his gutshot on the river -- but obviously not the turn. That sounds like a rather steep price to me.

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By checking the flop in the hopes that this precise scenario occurs (and given the read on UTG+1 I have to think it often will), we are charging those draws more money than we would be by betting the flop & again on the turn. And while this is not in & of itself a reason to check the flop, we are also saving ourselves a SB (or two) when an absolutely horrible turn card hits.

In a pot this size, no legit draw is folding before the river & no legit draw should. About the only thing we can protect against at any point in the hand is a naked ace, and even then not by facing them with a single bet. So you need to be thinking less of hand protection, and more of extracting value from the rest of the field; it just so happens that in this case we can best accomplish the latter in the same way that we can accomplish (as much as possible) the former.

And that's not even taking into account any potential metagame advantages you can get by taking this line & showing down a winner.

[Niediam]

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SSHE talks about this a bit. If the pot gets too big, there's no way you can protect your hand on the flop, so you have to wait until the turn to fire out 2+ big bets, then that at least protects you to some degree on the river.

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Oh woh, did you get that bit wrong. Nowhere do they state you should not bet the flop. They state that, in some cases, you should not raise the flop when the bettor is to your immediate right because you still give everybody odds and it bloats the pot. Instead, you should just call and hope he bets out again on the turn and then raise him. However, when you can not confidently make this turn raise, or you're not in good position to face the field with 2 on the turn, you should just try to get the most money in the pot when ahead and raise.

That is honestly the most debated little part of SSHE, and I wonder why they put it in there. It's so out of line with the rest of the book; they might as well have described a specific play in a blind stealing situation. I hardly ever make this play. The only situation that comes close is when I have a similar hand as here, BB bets out and get like 3 or 4 callers and it's left to me. In that case I often just call, instead of raising, to await the action and card on the turn. But that's primarily because I'm unsure whether I'm really ahead. (would you be sure about being ahead, you must raise there)

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Even if SSH doesn't specifically give an example where one would not bet the flop it's fairly clear that type of play is suggested in the right situation. There actually is an example in HEPFAP where it's suggested that you check AA on the flop in LP because of the same reasons.

I'm surprised though that you feel this play is 'out of line with the rest of the book' though. To me it seems very much a part of one of the core themes of SSH: when the pot get's big do whatever you can to protect your hand.

[HoneyBadger]

So you give an A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] a free turn card? A hand that can beat us and would probably have folded his likely dominated 3-outer to a flop bet? But you check behind, and turn an ace. Nobody else had one, but this guy is going to showdown now. Or SB is trying to c/r his TT, or his A-high flush draw to protect his ace outs, while the two behind him sit with 22 and 33 who would fold to that c/r. But now you check behind, and SB can't c/r, and the turn is a 3. Some hand protection. I won't buy it that giving 5 people a free card is good hand protection. (32 of hearts, turning a bdfd and hitting it on the river, QJ turning a gutshot to the nuts and hitting it on the river. All these hands fold on the flop; heck, even Q2 of spades who hits a Q on the turn will probably call that turn, and might hit a 2 or Q. So many hands will fold the flop but find something to continue for on the turn when given a free card)

SSHE never said anything about not betting; their point is not to raise in position, because somebody who already called 1 bet is certainly going to call your raise and then probably check to you on the turn.

[Xhad]

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A hand that can beat us and would probably have folded his likely dominated 3-outer to a flop bet?

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You realize pots this big are basically impossible unless your opponents are retardedly loose, right?

[HoneyBadger]

Even retards fold when they hold a likely 0-1 outer. But that may very well turn into a serious 4-9 outer on the turn. And you didn't even charge them for it. You didn't even charge the legitimate draws. You gave out a freebie to 5 people in a big pot, as if you were saying "Cheers mates! Have one on me."

The more I think about this hand, the more horrible I feel the flop check is.