How to Balance WW games.

[Mark_K]

Does a godfather balance a seer angel combo?
Or is a godfather, angel/seer, roleblocker more balanced?

[LuckayLuck]

I'd say in a ~24 player game...

+1 Angel, -3 Villagers
+1 Seer, -5 Villagers
+1 Wolf-Promotion-To-Godfather, +0-2 Villager
+1 Wolf-Promotion-To-Roleblocker, +0-2 Villager
+1 Wolf, +2-4 Villager

+1 Confirmed Villager, -2 Villager

(each time you add a confirmable power role, knock off two vanillagers)

[LuckayLuck]

there could be some sort of point system

like
in average speeds with 25 players, 6 wolves, 2 seers, 17 villagers


Count a villager as a point
Count a seer as five points
Count wolves as four points each

27 (village) vs 24 (wolf)

does that extrapolate well?
13-player...3 wolf, 1 seer, 9 villager

Pro-village: 9+5 = 14
Wolf: 3*4 = 12


21-Player...5 wolf, 1 seer, 15 villager

Pro-Village: 15+5 = 20
Wolf: 5*4 = 20


maybe?
it's like chess! wheeee



here's our 9-player turbos...

1 seer = 5 points
6 village = 6 points
2 wolf = 8 points

11 v 8
close enough?

[LuckayLuck]

throw in roleblockers at 6 points, godfathers at 6 points, angels (power variance) at 4-6 points, confirmable villagers (such as masonry) as one point for each additional confirmable (so two masons = 2 points)

zomg genius

[Mark_K]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd say in a ~24 player game...

+1 Angel, -3 Villagers
+1 Seer, -5 Villagers
+1 Wolf-Promotion-To-Godfather, +0-2 Villager
+1 Wolf-Promotion-To-Roleblocker, +0-2 Villager
+1 Wolf, +2-4 Villager

+1 Confirmed Villager, -2 Villager

(each time you add a confirmable power role, knock off two vanillagers)

[/ QUOTE ]

Great info Luckay! Thank you.

So to answer my question:
24 person game with a seer, angel, roleblocker, GF
needs 2 more wolves to be balanced (-5 + -3 + 1 + 1 + 3 + 3 = 0)

[LuckayLuck]

Quick and dirty analysis of ELECTION:

[ QUOTE ]
***Roles***


There are 33 players in this game. 9 are Werewolves and 24 are villagers.


Villager Power Roles

2 Seers -> Standard seer role. Each peeks every night and both got n0 peeks.

Roleblocker -> May choose to block one player from their night action each night.

Ballot Box Stuffer -> This villager's vote counts for 3 each day instead of 1

Reporter -> May investigate one player each night to see if they are home, ie if they have any night action or not.

Kidnapper -> If elected (lynched), he may choose one player to come to the capital (die) with him.

Vote Buyer -> May choose one player each evening to move their vote to a player of his choice. Must pm Jared by 10:10pm.

Dictator -> May choose to take over the electorate one day during the game. Must pm Jared by 10:10pm on the day he wishes to exercise his power and then post his decision in the thread by 10:30pm. He may use this power even if ineligible to receive votes. Once the power is used, he is a normal villager for the rest of the game, but will be an eligible villager who also has the right to pass down his legacy like any other eligible villager.

Yang -> This villager is tied to the wolf Ying. If Ying is elected (lynched), then Yang must go to the capital with him. If Yang is lynched/killed/assassinated, then Ying does not die. Also, if Ying is assassinated, Yang does not die. If Ying and Yang both vote for the same player, their combined votes count as 5, not 2.

Baker -> Each night, starting n0, he bakes one cupcake. Any day, he may choose to use some/all of his baked goods to move votes from rand()

players who did not vote for him onto him. He must pm Jared by 10:10 to use this power that day. No matter what he does, he always bakes exactly one each night. He may use this power to get votes even if he is ineligible, but it will not give him further eligibility and legacy power unless he actually makes it onto the electorate.

Assassin -> Has the option to make one kill per day/night cycle. However, he may only kill someone who has been on the electorate at some point during the game, as assassins kill high profile people. If he doesn't make a kill during a cycle, they do not build up. Day/night cycle starts with d1, so d1/n1 is the first opportunity, then d2/n2, d3/n3, etc. This means he could kill in n1 and d2 if he wishes, but then couldn't kill again until at least d3. He wins with the village like all other villagers.

2 Innkeepers -> Angel/Doctor role. Can protect themselves. If protects a seer, then they put the seer and one other rand() villager into 2 of their 3 'safe rooms.' If wolves try to kill either of these 2 players, they are protected. However, if wolves specify that their target is the seer and the person is the seer, then they will tear apart one of these 3 rooms. So 1/3 chance of killing seer, 1/3 of killing rand() villager and 1/3 of no kill. The rooms take 3 days to rebuild, so if they attack a 2nd night in a row, they will kill either the seer or rand() villager for sure. However, if they specify the target is a seer and it's not a seer, then no night kill occurs, even if the player wasn't protected.


Voting Bloc -> This bloc is composed of 4 villagers who do not know each other's identities. If all 4 vote for the same person, their vote power doubles, so 8 instead of 4. Also, one member is the 'head' of the bloc and is allowed to send one pm via mod to the other 3 players once during the game. These 4 may not speak to one another outside of the thread and the mods will not confirm who the members are. They will reveal as 'voting bloc' or 'head voting bloc' upon death/sight.






Wolf Power Roles

Evil Vote Buyer -> May choose one player each evening to move their vote to a player of his choice. Must pm Jared by 10:10pm.

Evil Box Stuffer -> This wolf's vote counts for 2 each day instead of 1

Evil Baker -> Each night, starting n0, he bakes one cupcake. Any day, he may choose to use some/all of his baked goods to move votes from rand() players who did not vote for him onto him. He must pm Jared by 10:10 to use this power that day. No matter what he does, he always bakes exactly one each night. He may use this power to get votes even if he is ineligible, but it will not give him further eligibility and legacy power unless he actually makes it onto the electorate.

Ying -> Tied to the villager Yang. If elected (lynched), then he takes Yang with him (kills yang). He cannot be harmed by his connection to Yang no matter how Yang dies. Also, if Ying and Yang vote for the same player, their combined vote power is 5, not 2.

Evil Roleblocker -> May choose to block one player from their night action each night.


***Roles***

[/ QUOTE ]



let's start with the good team

2 Seers = 10 points
Roleblocker = 2 points (confirmed villager)
Ballot Box Stuffer = 2 points (confirmed villager)
Reporter = 3 points (weak seer)
Vote Buyer = 2 points (confirmed villager)
Dictator = 2 points (confirmed villager)
Yang = 1 point (confirmed villager, but dies with Ying)
Baker = 2 points (confirmed villager)
Assassin = 3 points (vigilante worth 3 points?)
2 Innkeepers = 12 points (powerful angel)
Voting Bloc of 4 = 8 points (4 confirmed villagers)
7 Vanillagers = 7 points


Pro-Village = 54 points



Wolves

Evil Vote Buyer: this is like an extra wolf & 1/2 in terms of voting power. 7 points
Evil Box Stuffer: this is like an extra wolf in terms of voting power. 6 points
Evil Baker: this is like an extra wolf in terms of voting power. 6 points
Ying: takes down a villager when he dies. 6 points
Evil Roleblocker: 6 points
2 Vanillevils: 4*2 = 8 points


Wolves = 39 points




don't know if this actually has any practical use
just wanted to do it for fun

the game was obviously imbalanced in favor of village, so I decided to start here

is a 15 point difference huge? Probably.
is the fact that the number of confirmable villagers' values being exponentially valuable understated? yeah. Did I not even include any point values for minor villager powers? Nope, but I'm sure that should factor in too.

[LuckayLuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Great info Luckay! Thank you.

So to answer my question:
24 person game with a seer, angel, roleblocker, GF
needs 2 more wolves to be balanced (-5 + -3 + 1 + 1 + 3 + 3 = 0)

[/ QUOTE ]

this is all theoretical right now and late in night ramblings of a madman

we're talking a game of:

3 Seers
1 Angel
12 Villagers

Roleblocker
Godfather
6 Wolves


yeah, I guess that looks fair
a lot more variance than an average speed game though. Each seer knocked off is like knocking off five villagers. According to my point system. Which may or may not even be good. Who knows...

[FCBLComish]

I think the point system is a great idea. We need to analyze games that were balanced and come up with the proper point value for each role.

We can do a CHOOSE YOUR OWN ROLES game where each team has X points to spend on whatever roles they want.

[LuckayLuck]

I wonder how Choose Your Own Adventure fits into the point system

Evil Team:

[ QUOTE ]
Evil Power Roles

<u>The Assassin</u>: IP: Poison - At night the assassin can choose to poison one character. This character will lose his powers the first night, be silenced the second night, and die the third. The assassin starts the game with one vial of poison.
-The Assassin will gain an assortment of poisons and skills that could result in the hindrance and even death of party members.

<u>The Temptress</u>: IP:Seduce - Chooses 1 player per night. She blocks this player's event for the night.
-The Temptress will gain abilities in line with role blocking and event blocking.

<u>The Illusionist</u>: IP:Alter Aspect - Peek returns villager. As standard "Godfather" powers.
-The Illusionist will gain abilities that allow him to cast illusions to disguise himself, others, and the world around him.

<u>The Warlock</u>: IP: Polymorph Other: Turns target player into animal for one day. That player can not talk or vote.
-The Warlock is a mixed bag character. He will gain a vast assortment of one time use sorceries.

<u>The Saboteur</u>: IP: Snare: Will set a trap on one of the event choices. If the group chooses that option, they will fall into his trap. He is NOT in night chat, and will gain new kinds of traps as the game continues. <u>He receives the event choices the night before, and must set his trap on one of them before the thread opens.</u>

And 3 vanillaevils


[/ QUOTE ]


Assassin can take out additional guys. Let's say +3 in power to that. Assassin is 7 points.

Temptress is 6 points. (roleblocker)
Illusionist is 7 points since he can disguise others too. supergodfather.
Warlock is 7 points. can take out additional guys.
Saboteur is 5 points?

3 vanillaevils. 3*4 = 12


Evil team: 44 points


[ QUOTE ]
Good Power Roles

<u>The Bard</u>:
IP:Persuasion:When voting on day events only, his vote counts as triple.
-The Bard will gain abilities that effect the voting of events and lynches.

<u>The Priest</u>:
IP: Protection from Evil: He may protect a player each night from night kill at a 50% rate. His night decisions may enhance or dilute this power.
-The Priest will gain protection and curative abilities. He may also gain extra power against the forces of evil.

<u>The Scout</u>:
IP: Reconnaissance:Learns in advance what options the group will have for the next day's event. He may choose one to investigate and will learn the result if the group chooses that course of action.
IP: Journal: PMs the mod with his scouting report each evening. In the event of his death, a player will find his journal and share it with the group.
-The Scout will learn abilities that allow him foresight into events and acquired powers of other players.

<u>The Veteran</u>:
IP: Steel Resolve: Votes against the Veteran will only count as 2/3 of a vote.
- The Veteran will learn abilities that may enhance his toughness, power, or battle prowess.

<u>The Fortuneteller</u>:
IP: Divination: As standard seer peek. One per night.
-The Fortuneteller will gain abilities that might allow her to see into the future, communicate telepathically, and other powers of the mind.

<u>The Apprentice</u>:
IPivination Studies: Receives a peek every third night, simple good/evil. In the event the fortune teller dies, learns half of his peeks, determined by rand() (rand is from among all peeks, living and dead), and becomes a full seer. In the event the priest dies before the fortuneteller, his interest in the mystical world may lead him to study some protective and medicinal texts as well.
-The apprentice will gain abilities that make him a better student, but only as long as the Fortuneteller remains alive.

21 Vanillagers


[/ QUOTE ]

Bard was like a confirmed villager. +2
Scout was like a confirmed villager. +2
Veteran was like a confirmed villager. +2
Priest = Angel. +6
Fortuneteller = Seer. +6
Apprentice = Seer Jr. +5
21 Vanillagers = +21



Good team: 43 points


44 points v 43 points

who knows
maybe the point system has some value to it

CYOA rocked btw and seemed extremely balanced [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Mark_K]

Hehe.. I think this is where the "art" side of WW game design really comes into play...

It's nice having this data.. I can now more easily quantify the impact of the village losing a seer n1 etc...
Or a villager fake claiming and getting lynched...

J/K.. [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]