3/6 JJ - rare time for slowplay

[jskills]

[ QUOTE ]
Why aren't you just slamming this on the flop? This isn't a time for a slowplay...it's not like there aren't other hands out there that will play for one but not two. Who exactly is folding for two that will call one?

You missed a sh*t-ton of bets here, man...

- C -

[/ QUOTE ]

3-betting the flop makes it pretty hard for the two guys behind me to call 3 cold doesn't it? It can also drive the original flop bettor out since he has to call two and not one.

You're incorrect in terms of missing bets on the flop.

The question at hand is whether or not to raise the turn.

[jskills]

[ QUOTE ]
Great idea... waiting until the river to raise, so that all the hands that miss their diamond draws can safely fold. !!

[/ QUOTE ]

I never "raised" once. I bet.

Hands that were on a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] draw on the flop (and called two bets) would have got there on the turn. I was counting on being raised by one of the players behind me, since I couldn't think of why else either of them would call two on the flop on a 2 flushed board. Obviously, I was mistaken in my read of their hand ranges. What do you think they held on the flop that would warrent cold calling?

And FWIW, maybe you should have at least actually posted a hand of your own just once here before taking this kind of authoritative tone when replying to someone else. Please offer something constructive, rather than just criticize.

[jskills]

I agree with you in looking how things turned out, but I'm not sure if I'm being results oriented or not.

[jskills]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd raise the turn here.

What do you think CO cold calls on that flop with??? the case jack??? i'd guess he has a 7 or the flush draw or is retarded and just has one big diamond.



[/ QUOTE ]
I put at least one of them on a flush draw and expected I'd be raised on the turn behind my call.

[ QUOTE ]

make them pay to see the river. no one is folding a 7 or a big diamond and you may get more action out of made flush reraising you putting you on some sort of semibluff. sometimes people like to do stupid things...help them do such!

I think you missed a chance to make this pot a lot bigger.

-WT

[/ QUOTE ]

Well looking it at now, it's hard to disagree with you. Maybe I was thinking too much about their holdings when the diamond fell on the turn. I was shocked their was no raise.

[W. Deranged]

I probably three-bet the flop, but that probably should come as no surprise...

My thoughts:

1. The pot is four-handed and the two players in front of you have already shown interest. The guy behind you a very large portion of the time is not even calling two bets on the flop, so three-betting usually isn't going to change much about what he's holding. Those things he would call two with (7s and big draws) he'll often call three with. You might shut out a weak J or something like that but with three Js already tied up that's not that likely a holding for him.

The flop bettor will usually call two here, particularly considering that, again, one hand he might fold (the case J) is not all that likely. The flop raiser is always calling here if you three bet and sometimes you might get capped.

2. Raising the flop is absolutely the right play if anyone is holding a 7. If someone is holding trips, you make much more by pushing the hand early, because that either encourages them to play back at you, or, even better, "slowplay" and open themself up to a disaster turn or river three-bet.

3. If you are up against draws and they hit on the turn, you actually want to be the one betting and not the one calling. If you three-bet the flop and a draw comes in on the turn, you want to give your opponents the chance to try to "trap" you.



So, I think the key points here are using the board texture to figure out what permutations of hands are likely here and how they will pay the most here. The fact that top pair is not a likely holding for anyone means that you are probably more likely to be up against hands that are going to continue to pay you off: 7s or big draws. While it is very possible that one of the first two players have a hand like 88 or something, the will often get at least to the turn, and may actually be more likely to pay off if you juice the flop than if you make a big shut-out raise on the turn.

[Jake (The Snake)]

Not raising the turn is a large error imo.

If your opponents are on a flush draw, obviously it is essential to raise since they are almost certainly not folding. If they have a made flush already, even better because they will probably reraise it for ya.

Also, think about it this way. Say if you just call, one person will call and one will fold. If you had raised, both would have folded. You get the same number of bets either way on the turn.

This is why going for overcalls almost always sucks. DO NOT FORGET ABOUT THE ORIGINAL BETTOR. He almost always puts in that extra bet. Also, the times villains behind you will call two cold or 3-bet/cap usually make up for any missed potential bets by themselves since it is doubled or tripled a regular bet. Add in that extra bet from MP1 and raising is super easy imo.

I also think you should just raise the flop since the hands you are going to get action from (the 7's) are going to be ready to go to war. Since you 3-bet preflop, they will probably think you are on an overpair or something.

[W. Deranged]

I just wanted to add that the differences between three-betting the flop and calling the flop and raising the turn are probably pretty minimal, but the difference between raising the turn and forgetting to raise the turn is enormous. Either get aggressive on the flop or get aggressive on the turn. But failing to do either is really terrible in my opinion.

[The Dude]

I'm completely on board with your flop call, you get more money in the pot over the whole hand (in part by increasing the chances somebody will improve on the turn). If the turn had not been a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] then yeah, calling there is good too - the right play IMO. However, since it was a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], there are a lot more hands that are going to pay the price of two more bets on the turn, so you should definately be raising.

[psuasskicker]

3-betting the flop makes it pretty hard for the two guys behind me to call 3 cold doesn't it?

What are they gonna play if you don't raise that they'll fold if you do raise? A Jack? You've got two of 'em...

No, they're either folding their hands regardless of your raise, or playing them. Get the money in there! It's not like the board is J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] where there aren't action cards and action draws...

- C -

[freeDegas]

I think, calling the flop is better than raising it. If we look at the preflop action with the poster and SB calling two cold, they might have a good pair or AK. If we three-bet the flop, SB and CO will definitely fold this holding. They continue, because they think, nobody has a seven and they can probably beat a single J or have a draw like AK, which can beat it. AK has the pot odds to call two cold, but not three.
So, not 3-betting the flop is correct.