Iran - Do you think it's time for impeachment?

[Dane S]

Fox has really done a number on some of you people. What the hell would Iran want to attack the US for? Because they want their country to be destroyed? Use your brain a little. If Iran does anything it's to try to DEFEND against an expansionist superpower that wants to take its resources and install a puppet regime.

[Howard Beale]

[ QUOTE ]
They havent expressed any wish to do harm upon the US as far as im aware, but then i wouldnt be shocked if a money quote could be found.

But i disagree that they have any capability to attack the US, show me how they could by all means though.

[/ QUOTE ]

How did Al-Qaeda attack the US?

[[Phill]]

Howard,

By that token i could single handedly represent my country by flying to the US and sniping the president or set off a bomb in a municiple building or something.

States dont generally commit terrorist actions like this for the simple fact of escalation.

If they had an ICBM capable of hitting a US city then i agree, but flying to a country and committing terrorism is not what we are talking about here.

Plus, yeah, like Dane says there is no logical reason for Iran doing so - they want nukes as a logical conclusion to defending themselves against a proven aggressor in the form of the US.

Whilst they may front about wanting to destroy Israel (and alledgedly the US, though ive yet to see a quote as ive stated) they will simply never take such actions due to it not furthering any long term goals they may have.

In reality, their number one goal would probably be an Iran-South Iraq Shia superstate, protected by a nuclear deterent and capable of wielding great power on the world stage with its combined oil and gas reserves.

Of course you could argue that is as bad, if not worse than Iran firing off a missile at Israel but its not nearly the same thing as them attacking another nation.

[Howard Beale]

[ QUOTE ]
Fox has really done a number on some of you people. What the hell would Iran want to attack the US for? Because they want their country to be destroyed? Use your brain a little. If Iran does anything it's to try to DEFEND against an expansionist superpower that wants to take its resources and install a puppet regime.

[/ QUOTE ]

And YOU can assert this how? From Iran the US is 'The Great Satan' this and 'The Great Satan' that.

Then there is Ahmadinejad's fanatical religious beliefs.

The most remarkable aspect of Mr Ahmadinejad's piety is his devotion to the Hidden Imam, the Messiah-like figure of Shia Islam, and the president's belief that his government must prepare the country for his return.

And who says the US will be able to prove that terrorist attacks were orchestrated by Iran if they were to use their extensive network of proxies? And do you think that the US would rain nuclear destruction on Iran in the event of another 9/11?

Sometimes people mean what they say and what comes out of the mouths of the officials running Iran is disconcerting. I take the Iranians seriously and they have done nothing to make me feel that I shouldn't.

btw: Not that I like putting words in peoples mouths but mentioning Fox News is telling. By your tone, which I didn't much care for, I take it you think I'm a knuckledragger.

Of course, I could make some similar reference in return to a person who says things like 'expansionist superpower that wants to take its resources and install a puppet regime.' but I won't.

[Howard Beale]

Am I to take solace and place my reliance in your assurances or am I to take measures to protect myself? Many believe that the US is the root of this problem. I disagree. In their hearts I think the majority of Iranians disagree as well. I think at least half of them would like to move to the US. Of course that's just my own personal estimate. It might be only 45%.

[[Phill]]

No offense to you Howard, but what measures can you take to protect yourself.

If by this you mean have your country go to war with Iran, then no, this wont protect you. This will AGAIN be another message for rogue states that the future is secret nuclear development like North Korea has done.

I simply dont see how war is the answer on this one, but on the upside this one is less likely to inflame Al Qaueda like the last one did.

As for moving to America, perhaps its true, i simply have no idea. One thing i know is that Iranians love Iran, but the opportunity to go work in a rich Western nation in order to send cash back for their family is a dream of most young people in empoverished nations id imagine.

[Howard Beale]

[ QUOTE ]
No offense to you Howard, but what measures can you take to protect yourself.

If by this you mean have your country go to war with Iran, then no, this wont protect you. This will AGAIN be another message for rogue states that the future is secret nuclear development like North Korea has done.

I simply dont see how war is the answer on this one, but on the upside this one is less likely to inflame Al Qaueda like the last one did.

As for moving to America, perhaps its true, i simply have no idea. One thing i know is that Iranians love Iran, but the opportunity to go work in a rich Western nation in order to send cash back for their family is a dream of most young people in empoverished nations id imagine.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I thought I could pull the trigger and destroy all of Irans' nuclear facilities from the air in short order I would do it tomorrow. But this can't be done and I think 'we' know it. I also don't think we go to war w/ Iran. We're likely going to end up w/ the best containment that we can manage. Unfortunately, we will also likely end up w/ a nuclear Saudi Arabia and Egypt. Sooner or later, w/ so many nations possessing nuclear weapons, something is going to go bad. I'm 57 years old next month. I'm not so affected as the young amongst us.

From what I see it'll be trying times w/ the tools of ultimate destruction placed in the hands of more and more people and many of them not rational actors.

Lastly, I appreciate the 'no offense' and likewise extend the same to you.

[Dane S]

[ QUOTE ]
And YOU can assert this how?

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, I can assert it because of common sense. You're the one advocating a preemptive US attack on a large country which would likely cost tens of thousands of innocent lives or more, this after every pretext for the Iraq invasion carried through by the same administration was proven false and the whole thing turned into a massive catastrophe. An attack on a country with a much weaker military than the US that has no conceivable reason to attack the US or US interests, given what the response would obviously be. Maybe YOU oughta provide a little support.



[ QUOTE ]

Then there is Ahmadinejad's fanatical religious beliefs.

The most remarkable aspect of Mr Ahmadinejad's piety is his devotion to the Hidden Imam, the Messiah-like figure of Shia Islam, and the president's belief that his government must prepare the country for his return.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ever heard of politics? Well, Mr. Ahmadinejad is a politician. He says stuff that will make his people support him. Surprising, right? Maybe you should examine Iran's POLICIES instead of its politicians' rhetoric.

[ QUOTE ]
And who says the US will be able to prove that terrorist attacks were orchestrated by Iran if they were to use their extensive network of proxies? And do you think that the US would rain nuclear destruction on Iran in the event of another 9/11?


[/ QUOTE ]

I highly doubt Iran wants another terrorist strike to happen again in the US, given what the likely response from the Bush administration would be. This is the administration that used 9/11 to invade Iraq... they'll take any excuse they can get. I don't know if that response would include nukes or not, but it wouldn't be very surprising. Whatever happened certainly wouldn't be good for any Iranian.

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes people mean what they say and what comes out of the mouths of the officials running Iran is disconcerting. I take the Iranians seriously and they have done nothing to make me feel that I shouldn't.

btw: Not that I like putting words in peoples mouths but mentioning Fox News is telling. By your tone, which I didn't much care for, I take it you think I'm a knuckledragger.

Of course, I could make some similar reference in return to a person who says things like 'expansionist superpower that wants to take its resources and install a puppet regime.' but I won't.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry about the tone, but I find it ...alarming that someone can advocate a war like this without seeming to understanding the most basic factors involved. You think it's okay to live in and support a country that just hauls off and invades independent nations without unassailable justification? Well, I have a problem with that, a strong problem, and I will question anyone who doesn't--both his moral value and his intelligence. This idea that the world is filled with evil dark forces who hate us and want to kill us (not for any rational reason mind you, just because they are different and evil and crazy), I mean that's the oldest trick in the book. Get your citizens scared and they'll let you get away with anything. You just gotta claim to be trying to protect them. Well excuse me if I'd rather not live in the American Fourth Reich.

When you are calling for war on a sovereign nation, for the inevitable slaughter of huge numbers innocent men, women, and children, the burden of proof is on you.

[SNOWBALL]

I met him at a march on may day in portland. He's a pretty short dude.

[KOTLP]

All,

Thanks for the enlightening discussion. I appreciate the efforts to try to remain objective here. Philosophically, I've always been somewhere between a pacifist and very minimal just war theorist, and strongly oppose preemptive war. But I know very little about the current state of Iran and the legality of the US threats as my head has been in research and development for the past 3 months.

[ QUOTE ]

I did not read anything in the UN Charter that outlawed a threat of war. More importantly, I don't see how any US law could constitutionally make it illegal to say that the US should consider attacking Iran.

[/ QUOTE ]

bobman,

I sent an email to the Kucinich staff asking for more info here and will report back.

<kucinich stuff, for those interested>
I campaigned for Kucinich in the last election largely based on his anti-war efforts and endorsements by nobel peace prize winners. I ran the state level Kucinich website. Of course, nobody in the campaign thought he had a shot last go around, but we tried to spread the anti-war message (I really wanted Dean and am still pissed at what the media and DNC did to him), as well as some of his more progressive ideals such as free health care and an end to the drug war. We had some success on a local level (we actually won our local caucus and sent more delegates than Kerry or Edwards). For anyone that hasn't volunteered for a campaign, I suggest giving it a try as it is a lot of fun and you meet some great people.

I am just now about to start volunteering again, and am too behind on current events at the moment to assess the veracity of Dennis' speech. I can tell you that the man speaks his own words and does not back down to anyone for political reasons or for money. He has been speaking at peace talks with Members of Parliament in London the past few days. If you aren't familiar with his story, read up on how he saved public utilities as the youngest mayor of Cleveland sometime, was ran out of office, still won the fight against big business, and is now considered a local hero. Check out this month's Time magazine for a good intro.
</kucinich>