Why do we hate shortstacks so much?

[feesjah]

I used to hate them, but now i like them because of this:
- Usually you just donate some to them before stacking them

you can put them all in multiple times and still have them covered and stack them later.

but yeah, higher variance sucks

[Avicenna]

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Vocabulary question: what is ratholing?

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Leaving the table after doubling up. You're not so short anymore, so you gotta take the money to safe place and buy in short for another table.

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Thanks. Not good etiquette..

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because i dont know how to play against them properly. most of the time i either raise they flat call and push when i miss i fold or they raise all in and i fold my suited connector or they call my cbet they push or checkdown and their midpair is good.

if you have two shortstacks in the sb/bb and its folded round to the button, im beginning to think raising 22 there isn't optimal.

maybe im wrong?


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Yes I seems like correct short-stack strategy. They push with second pair (or better), good draw, or when you show weakness.
Your answer: push yourself. You're commiting a bit more thant you wanted on a marginal holding, but you've more FE than you think.

[herbstl]

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i think 1 or 2 agro shortISHstacks 6 handed is just what the table needs

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think so, too. The table dynamic increases with shortstacks and you can push AQ/AK on non dangerous Flop and (short)
stack them, when they call with AJ [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

But my most prefered OP on the table is a 60BB MidStack, because they make the most mistakes.

[josh_x]

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FWIW, I think only 5% of shortstacks are actualy using some kind of strategy. The other 95% just suck and don't want to risk 100bb.

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shortstacks are great you get to go all in vs them without risking much. seriously they almost all suck and are easy money, what's the problem?

[FishSticks]

I don't care about the ratholing and the other crap frankly - it's online poker, people come and go all the time and it's just the way it us.

I hate shortstacks because they exploit the games and have an edge over other players. With all the 3betting and resteals that occur preflop these days, combined with the very loose open raising standards of today's players, shortstacks get MANY +EV push opportunities preflop in a typical 6max game - and your typical game that is optimized for play against 100BB opponents isn't very good against shortstacks. You are forced to decide who you really want to try to beat, and it blows.

Anyways poker sites just need to get tables rolling with at least 50BB minimum buyins and let the shortstacks play by themselves.

[Rainclouds]

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Anyways poker sites just need to get tables rolling with at least 50BB minimum buyins and let the shortstacks play by themselves.

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I agree with this. There should be a greater variaty of table properties to choose from on a poker site. If you could choose between 50-100BB tables, 100-200BB tables, and 20-50BB tables or so, that'd be nice! Having only 20-100BB tables just makes it inevitable to have to deal with short stacks.

To be more on topic, I love or hate shortstacks, depending on their position at the table.
At my left - I hate them, they push my 3-4BB raises when I have SC's, so I must fold and lose my raise, or just not raise at all, which disturbes my strategy.
At my right - they are a goldmine. I only have to wait for a nice hand and I win their stacks.

[fitnessfreak]

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Vocabulary question: what is ratholing?

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THIS is ratholing. Happened about 20 minutes ago:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (3 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Button ($192.41)
Hero ($1070.25)
BB ($849)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $16</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero (poster) raises to $50</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $36.

Flop: ($108) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($108) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $54</font>, Button calls $192.41 (All-In), Hero calls $86.41.

River: ($440.82) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $440.82

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Button has Ah Ts (full house, tens full of aces).
Hero has 8c 8s (full house, eights full of tens).
Outcome: Button wins $388.82. Hero wins $52. </font>

He was gone 5 seconds later. [censored] leeches!!

fwiw, i have found that the best way to stack them is to check any pretty good hand (TPTK and above) to them or just donk bet like in the hand above and they will push with weaker hands, and sometimes even air.
i also know that my line looks donkish, but i have induced pushes from short stacks with all kinds of garbage by taking this line. lol, time to get flamed by the 2+2 faithful [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[PBJaxx]

I am not going to post much on this, but I will say a few things for clarity. Ratholing is the practice of buying in short (typically 20BB), with the intention of doubling up, leaving, and coming back to the table after enough time has past so that they can buy-in again for the minimum.

The reason we don't like shortstacks is pretty simple. We have optimized our games (specifically our pf raising range) for 100BB+ stacks. We raise many marginal hands (SCs, pps, etc) that rely on implied odds and post-flop play in order to make them profitable. When a shortstack is at the table, the effective stack size will be as small as 20BB for any hand they are in or whenever they are left to act. We often don't adjust our hand ranges for the new effective stacks allowing them to play profitably against us with little to no skill. They reduce the edge of a good "deep" stack player by limiting our ability to play certain hands and minimizing post flop play. Post flop play is where our primary advantage lies, and a shortstacker takes it away from us.

I could be more clear on this, but I am not sure why we are discussing it anyway.

[ImsaKidd]

I've tried shortstacking, it is not very easy to do well.

The "2p2 stigma" of shortstackers makes it nearly impossible to find someone to talk strat with. "die shortstacker die" obviously.

If any other SS'ers are lurking around, shoot me a PM and we can chat. I might be going back to 100BB soon if I cant start running well &gt;&lt;

[cbboy]

There is a book that someone wrote about short stacking and how to do it profitably. I don't recall who wrote it or what it was called, but I'm sure you could find it.