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#11
03-12-2007, 02:24 AM
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Re: Opponent comes alive on the river..respect or valuetown?
give us reads then to let us know this. as you posted your hand with no reads you basically told us hes an unknown, so we should be betting more because we have no idea of his holdings. and even if you are miles ahead betting weak can give alot of different hands great odds to call you, esp when you factor in implied odds
and he isnt that wrong to call with 5 outters. esp if its an unseen one like 97sooooted. and i do feel the implied odds are there, maybe not for a stack but def for a decent bet. 
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#12
03-12-2007, 02:26 AM
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Re: Opponent comes alive on the river..respect or valuetown?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] whats up with the weak bets all the way. [/ QUOTE ] (response to all in this thread) My opponent is almost certainly miles behind on this flop. Why should I bet the pot and convince him to fold if I can bet half the pot and milk him? I'm only giving 3-1 instead of 2-1. He's still very wrong to call with 5 outers and less, but more likely to make the mistake of doing it and imagining that he somehow has enough implied odds to try to draw out on me. [/ QUOTE ] okay, but the turn bet is a bit ugly....
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#13
03-12-2007, 02:30 AM
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Re: Opponent comes alive on the river..respect or valuetown?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] whats up with the weak bets all the way. [/ QUOTE ] (response to all in this thread) My opponent is almost certainly miles behind on this flop. Why should I bet the pot and convince him to fold if I can bet half the pot and milk him? I'm only giving 3-1 instead of 2-1. He's still very wrong to call with 5 outers and less, but more likely to make the mistake of doing it and imagining that he somehow has enough implied odds to try to draw out on me. [/ QUOTE ] b/c your opponent doesn't care whether you give him 2 to 1 or 3 to 1. it's really not changing his calling range much but it's horrible for metagame (less of an argument b/c it doesn't matter much in this case). also, what happens when you've played a hand incredibly weakly and are faced w/ a substantial bet on the river? also, no way i check this flop. you get value out of WAY too many hands and not betting it makes the hand too complicated and more difficult to play. lastly as played i call and puke when he shows up w/ some goofy hand that beats me or some weak hand i could of gotten a lot more value out of.
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#14
03-12-2007, 02:30 AM
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Re: Opponent comes alive on the river..respect or valuetown?
You state implied odds "give alot of different hands great odds". That is untrue. Let's assume he is playing a 5 out type of hand. He needs to end up getting 9-1 on his action to make this call worth it. When I bet (say) $8 on the turn with the pot at $16, and he calls, it means he somehow has to plot to get another $50+ into the pot on the river )with the pot currently sitting at $24) when he hits his hand. It's not that hard to lay down one pair when someone starts overbetting the pot.
The whole idea of the small bets is to *not* give good implied odds. It's not read dependent for me - this is my standard line.
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#16
03-12-2007, 02:34 AM
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Re: Opponent comes alive on the river..respect or valuetown?
[ QUOTE ]
Raising is only good if your AQ is better than 50% against the distribution that your opponent will call your raise with. [/ QUOTE ] and what if he pushes on your raise?
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#17
03-12-2007, 02:36 AM
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Re: Opponent comes alive on the river..respect or valuetown?
[ QUOTE ]
it's really not changing his calling range much but it's horrible for metagame [/ QUOTE ] I disagree with both statements. 1) When you bet the pot twice, you tend to force out all the hands you want to play against, and face the hands you don't want to play against. When you bet the half pots, you tend to keep those you want to play against in even longer, especially because the pot stays smaller and you can bet smaller. 2) For metagame - you can stab and cbet small at all kinds of pots because you have "protected" those small bets by betting small with your real hands as well. This style of play tends to turn TAGs into loose passives. [ QUOTE ] what happens when you've played a hand incredibly weakly and are faced w/ a substantial bet on the river? [/ QUOTE ] Then you post the hand on 2p2 with the subject line "Opponent comes alive on the river..respect or valuetown?" [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] I don't mind difficult decisions when I play.
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#18
03-12-2007, 02:36 AM
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Re: Opponent comes alive on the river..respect or valuetown?
i was actually gearing my arguement to the flop bet. is it really inconcieveable that he could have 89 here and with 5 outs on the flop at 3 to one say 97 hes like 78:22 and you gave him a little better then 3:1.
im sorry the week betting thing just doesnt work here. IMO and he cant have a 5 outter on the turn. you have top 2. he has a 2 outter or an 8 outter or a 3 outter
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#20
03-12-2007, 03:32 AM
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Re: Opponent comes alive on the river..respect or valuetown?
I agree that you don't want to be betting pot, but you bet less than half the pot. I think that somewhere between 1/2 pot and 2/3 pot gets value and simultaneously helps you have a better idea of where you are (also, this should be the size of your continuation bets, so this coincides with your idea of keeping your value bets and continuation bets at the same size for disguise).
I also agree that you shouldn't be afraid of tricky decisions, but at the same time, milking your opponents is counterproductive if you end up making the wrong decision in a lot of these tricky situations. May Your EV Always Be Positive! Tony Guerrera
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